"Limitations to Know and Understand for Summoned Daemons"

[pretre]

Since this will no doubt come up a bit. I thought this might be helpful

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598376.page

 

 

Daemon Factory definitely is something to be concerned about, but before we have too much fear lets make sure we are getting their limitations down and don't let the Daemons player unknowing gain any extra advantage. I've seen quite a bit of talk and misinformation regarding some of these points.  Lets get it right so we can accurately address the threat that Daemon Factory represents.

Perils:  Make sure that if they are a non Daemon that they Perils on any double, not just 6's and not just on successful castings.

One Power Attempt Per Unit:  Only one attempt at any one specific power per unit per turn.  No double attempts at the same power from any unit without a special rule allowing it.

Warp Charges:  Make sure the player is not adding any Warp Charges to their pool from the Summoned Daemons.  Yes, they generate their powers the turn they arrive and are able to manifest any non Conjuration power the turn they arrive, but they arrive after Warp Charges are collected and do not contribute to this turns Warp Charge Pool.  They contribute normally the turn after they are summoned.

Arrive Via Deepstrike:  Summoned Daemons arrive via Deepstrike and must follow all relevant limitations.  "is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes."   They effectively have arrived from Reserves via Deep Strike and cannot Move in the Movement phase, and cannot charge in the Assault phase.  They may run or shoot.  This is very relevant for Summoned Flying Monstrous Creatures.

Objective Secured:  Conjured units are Scoring unit, but summoned Horrors, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes, and Bloodletters are not Troops, they are conjured units and were not selected in a Troop FOC slot, and do not benefit from the Battleforged Objective Secured Special Rule.  No permission is giving to assign a summoned unit to s FOC slot and therefore are a slot-less unit belonging to the Chaos Daemon's Faction.

Range of Summoning:  Only Summoning and Incursion have a 12" range, measured from the Psycher.  First model must be placed wholly within 12" and then scattered as normal.  The range for Sacrifice and Possession is only 6".  Note:  If a unit suffers a DS mishap and goes into Ongoing Reserves it can be placed anywhere on the table when it arrives from Reserves in the following turns.

Cursed Earth only requires the first model be placed within 12" for No Scatter DS.

Solo Heralds:  Heralds are summoned within 6".  They cannot move and cannot join another unit the turn they arrive.  They also cannot contribute to the Warp Charge pool the turn they arrive. 

Summoned Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change:  Bloodthirsters or Lords of Change are Flying Monsterous Creatures who have arrived from reserve via Deep Strike.  FMCs who have arrived via Deepstrike are forced to be in Swooping mode and cannot change flight modes until the following turn as changing flight modes is performed at the start of its move, which it does not have.  It has been forced to be declared as Swooping the turn it arrives.  Therefore they cannot charge until two turns after they are summoned.

For example, a Bloodthirster is summoned Turn 2.  It arrives in Swooping mode, cannot move or change Flight Modes turn 2.  It can only run or shoot Turn 2.  Turn 3 the Bloodthirster can change movement modes and begin Gliding.  It can shoot or Run as normal.  Turn 4 the Blood Thirster can Glide and charge.

One Eye Open  Daemons still belond to the Codex Daemons Faction and if summoned by a Faction that is Comes the Apocalypse or Desperate Allies they are still subject to the One Eye Open rules laid out in Allies.  Summoning and scatter may force this check at the beginning of the following turn.

Transports and Vehicles:  Summoning from inside of a Transport or a Building is prohibited.

Possession, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, and ICs: When an IC or ICs are attached to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules and Possession is cast, the entire unit is sacrificed, including any attached Independent Characters who "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

 

[Romans832]

 

Possession, Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers, and ICs: When an IC or ICs are attached to a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules and Possession is cast, the entire unit is sacrificed, including any attached Independent Characters who "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes."

WOW! Didn't see that one coming.

Thank you Pretre

[Guest]

Yeah, this is very helpful. Thanks.

[VonVilkee]

There is also an odd interaction when generating powers and being able to get the primaris. I'll grab page numbers and type it up soon...

 

Now the relevant passages:

 

Pg 22 bottom right psychic focus box, first paragraph, last sentance.

If during the course of a game a psyker gains a psychic power from another school they immediately lose psychic focus and the associated primaris.

 

Further down same box mark of chaos or deamon of chaos focus.

These psykers know the primaris of their god in addition to all other powers they know.

 

Pg 23 bottom left bold

A psyker can not know the same power twice. This rule leads on to clarfication...

 

Pg 23 top right second bold section:

If generating all powers from the same discipline to gain focus they can not substitute any random power.

 

To me that means a level one chaos psyker will either have their gods powers or a single malefic that is not the primaris.

 

Order of operations mastery level one: generate power from malefic, gain focus, be unable to swap, get chaos gods power, lose focus. Leaving psyker with a single random power. EDIT and have the god specific primaris as they are chaos.

 

Higher mastery levels complicate things but still ends up cutting down on your chances of getting the powers you want to farm.

[Guest]

Seems really confusing, the way you wrote it. I think your talking about the CSM/daemon psykers using their god specific powers. There's a note about chaos users with psychic focus:

 

"Chaos Psychic Focus
If a Psyker has a Mark of Chaos or is a Daemon of a particular Chaos God (see
Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons), that model
automatically knows the primaris power of the discipline that corresponds to
their patron deity, in addition to any other powers it knows."

 

So, my understanding is that a chaos psyker with 1 mastery level would have two powers automatically, the god primaris power and the one rolled randomly for a disipline (which in turn, could be swapped for the primaris of that disipline). As a result, the chaos psyker can never gain the normal psyker focus because they'll always know more than one discipline.

[VonVilkee]

I think they lose psychic focus unless they actually take from the god. If they generated one power (and have one mastery level) from the malefic chart they would have psychic focus and would not be able to swap per the rules. The psyker would then due to the chaos rules gain the primaris of their diety. I really believe this is a bit of balancing.

[Brent Mooney]

One Power Attempt Per Unit: Only one attempt at any one specific power per unit per turn. No double attempts at the same power from any unit without a special rule allowing it.

 

 

 

That's per caster right? So one dude can cast prescience here the another over there.

[pretre]

Shooting from the hip here, since I don't have my books in front of me, but yes. So Unit A with Horrors and IC tries to cast prescience. Fails. No additional try. Unit B tries to cast prescience. Succeeds.

[AbusePuppy]

Straight RAW each unit can only cast a spell once, no matter how many different psykers in the unit know the power.

 

However, by that very same RAW, any psyker in a unit can be the one to cast a power if any other psyker in the unit knows the power. Don't wanna risk Perils on your Farseer? Let that Warlock cast Invisibility or Fortune for him!

[VonVilkee]

Interesting abuse interesting...

[magnusthetraitor]

Straight RAW each unit can only cast a spell once, no matter how many different psykers in the unit know the power.

 

However, by that very same RAW, any psyker in a unit can be the one to cast a power if any other psyker in the unit knows the power. Don't wanna risk Perils on your Farseer? Let that Warlock cast Invisibility or Fortune for him!

Every time I read through this section, I get the impression that they meant "psyker" instead of "unit" in half of the sentences. I'm hoping we get an FAQ of this section in the same vein as 6th ed's FAQ on wound allocation. Its like they didn't realize that a psyker IC could join another to form a unit comprising multiple psykers.

 

While correct by the current rules, a Warlock casting Invisibility for a Farseer makes about as much fluff sense as a Warlock taking a dump for the Farseer.

 

Magnus

[AbusePuppy]

Oh, I agree, it's dumb as heck- I wouldn't hold your breath for an official FAQ, though.

[VonVilkee]

How else would a warlock proceed to farseer? Yay forging the narrative and "young" Padwan learners :P

[Aventine]

"I believe in you young Warlock, I really think you're ready, this time you get to try to summon the Bloodthirster..."

[Guest]

For sake of argument, would switching the use of "unit" to "psyker" have any other, potentially game breaking, effects?

[Lord Hanaur]

Makes you kinda wanna never summon ever, dont it?

[Chappy]

Makes you kinda wanna never summon ever, dont it?

Write it down! Joseph and I agree on something. Call Guinness. I don't think I will ever try the summoning thing. I feel (my own opinion) that the Chaos Daemon codex is strong enough on it's own without adding to it. Furthermore, there is a perceived "bad blood" from opponents who feel that their opponent will be daemon-farming if they are playing from that codex. So for me (FOR ME) I will not be summoning anything in my army.