Night goblin tax and stuff

[Brother Glacius]

Was anyone else surprised with the night goblin unit restrictions? I thought it was a really odd tax to have. On the one hand, I think NGs with fanatics are going to be fairly effective. And so its probably a good way to limit them in a primarily orc army who is just looking for that extra punch. That being said, trying to make a themed all NG army forces you to take lots of characters. Probably not a big deal in bigger games, but in smaller games, I can see where it will really limit you.

Also, I finally just realized that Animosity is gone. It has been replaced by Impetuous which isn't nearly as debilitating. That being said, I think it adds a whole new layer to playing NG and facing them. I can see a little dance happening, especially with skirmishers and fast cav, trying to draw a charge by just being in range of an O&G unit, hoping that a failed Impetuous roll will see them out of position, or even possibly running into their own fanatics.

And then this led me to thinking about the Drilled special rule and whether or not you can perform that before a charge. The charge rules say that you normally can't do it unless otherwise specified, and the Drilled rules say it is free, but doesn't specifically state you can do it before a charge....but I think it is ambiguous enough that it should have clarification.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I thought this upon first read too but I have come around. One, it does limit the cheap use of fanatics but it also encourages the use of the cheap characters and they can make the almost harmless Night Gobos more threatening. Instead of 50 gobos just being a tar pit that does nothing back you add a punch that makes you think twice. The characters aren’t that great but they are cheap hitters. 
 

But I think it is them pushing us to do more themed lists instead of just taking the best units. My first lists will be Black Orc centric with a troll theme and my second list will be a night gobo list with a squig theme. Two totally different playstyles. 
 

But I hear you, they are kind of taxing you to prevent people from just cherry picking. 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

No animosity made me dance in my home. I don’t know how many times on that pivotal moment when I was going to charge my combat bricks with a WAAAGH! called ended with my two main units beating on each other doing nothing just to leave my other units hanging out to get charged essentially giving my opponent the game. Lots of Black Orc bosses taken just to prevent as much as possible back then. Quell Impetuousity looks to also call for black orcs but it looks like it will be much much easier to handle now. 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I know I’m just ranting now but Doomdivers seem like they are no longer a must. In fact outside of Cannons I think Warmachines will be more rare. Shooting as a whole really. 

[Matt Israel]

I think list building is a lot more fun then other editions.  

[dkieft]

Did you notice that Night Goblins are not impetuous?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

16 minutes ago, dkieft said:

Did you notice that Night Goblins are not impetuous?

I think they did that so you can do a Night Gobo list without Black Orcs. 

[dkieft]

Pretty sure you could field impetuous Night Goblins without Black Orcs 😛

[Murphy'sLawyer]

44 minutes ago, dkieft said:

Pretty sure you could field impetuous Night Goblins without Black Orcs 😛

It’s the quell impetuosity that I’m referring to. But yea, you can. But most O&G lists will have black orcs just to keep its front line from charging off on failed charges. Not to mention black orcs are just a hammer and an anvil unit I can’t see leaving home without.

But if you want some old school unpredictably fun Night Gobos will be fun to run. Orc lists will be more for predictable battles. 
 

I’ve been running through ideas for O&G lists and there seems to be two different ways to run them. Mainly Orc lists with some gobo chaff with Giants or trolls for monstrous hitting power or Night Goblins with heavy squig support of all types. Shooting seems nearly impossible to make its points back and warmachines also don’t seem worth it unless you’re hoping your doomdiver can go after a large monstrous mount with a character. But this is all just theory crafting so far. My Trolls are a week out and hopefully movement trays come by then too. Then I need to find someone to play against in Portland. 
 

Until then this is all just my opinions from reading and the few battle reports on YouTube. If you get some games in let us know your experience. 
 

Happy Gaming! 

[Brother Glacius]

only other unit without impetuous are the squig hoppers...I think that is probably going to be FAQ'd at some point and fixed. I can't see any reason why only two units don't have the rule when every other goblin unit does.

[Duckman]

Regarding Drilled, I think you have to be able to use it before a charge.  Specifically, you can explicitly declare a charge while in Marching Order and specifically cannot make a Charge Move while in Marching Order.  Making that explicit in the rules means either that Drilled works or that they are officially screwing Frenzy/Impetuous since you can and now must declare a charge move when in Marching Order knowing you cannot possibly make a legal charge and therefore opening to door for every opponent to say "I don't care that you have a screening unit and I don't care that you know it is not moving, it *could* be possible and therefore you must declare it" with Marching Order as a precedent.  Since I really don't like that option I gotta go with Drilled works to make it possible.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

29 minutes ago, Duckman said:

Regarding Drilled, I think you have to be able to use it before a charge.  Specifically, you can explicitly declare a charge while in Marching Order and specifically cannot make a Charge Move while in Marching Order.  Making that explicit in the rules means either that Drilled works or that they are officially screwing Frenzy/Impetuous since you can and now must declare a charge move when in Marching Order knowing you cannot possibly make a legal charge and therefore opening to door for every opponent to say "I don't care that you have a screening unit and I don't care that you know it is not moving, it *could* be possible and therefore you must declare it" with Marching Order as a precedent.  Since I really don't like that option I gotta go with Drilled works to make it possible.

I think you’re right here. That seems to be worded to directly prevent you from just putting yourself into a marching formation to avoid impetuous and frenzy. I’m still going over it but since you have to read several different sections I’m still piecing it together. But your interpretation seems accurate. 

[Brother Glacius]

By the words written, you can't do other move actions before a charge unless stated otherwise, and unfortunately, I haven't see anything mention breaking that rule. So while I think it could...it isn't written that way. So hopefully a FAQ because then it becomes a good ability to have. It goes from useful, to very useful.

[Duckman]

The only thing I can say is that Drilled says "Unless it is fleeing, a Drilled unit may perform a free redress the ranks manoeuvre immediately before moving."  I don't think that's crystal clear but I think it *is* enough to be ambiguous.  The problem, though, is why Marching Column explicitly calls out that a unit can declare a charge (p. 119).  The next paragraph begins "Additionally, a unit cannot declare an impossible charge..." so there is no reason for the Marching Column to be able to declare unless there is a way ot make the charge move possible.  If that ain't Drilled then what is it?

[Fixxer2]

My interpretation is that Drilled was designed for that exact reason. 
 

Drilled is for elite troops so, I don’t understand why some folk think it’s a problem. 
 

[Brother Glacius]

Because it doesn't explicitly say it can be used even if you declare a charge. Charging specifically stops redressing of ranks and states only things that specifically ignore that rule are allowed to change it. No wording, not explicit...seems straight forward to me. Intention I think is there, but without proper wording...it becomes a roll off each game. And of course in your private games, feel free to agree beforehand.

[Duckman]

I have a real problem with roll-off each game.  I know you can resort to that but I built a list that (did|did not) include specific units because of rules and finding out that I hamstrung my list in the middle of turn 3 is no fun.

Specifically on the subject of Drilled there is noise in the community that a GW source has implied that this whole rule is an edit error where GW had earlier allowed Charges in Marching Column and changed it after playtesting.  I'm not sure I believe that since a) GW does playtesting? b) in what world would you have had a sentence stating explicitly that you could declare a charge in Marching Column if it was allowed anyway?

[Matt Israel]

This drilled and charging thing needs to be addressed by GW. Until then best work that out with the person across the table from you.

[Fixxer2]

Manoeuvring During A Charge
Unless stated otherwise, a charging unit cannot perform a
turn, move backwards, move sideways, redress the ranks or
reform manoeuvre during its charge move.

Drilled is the UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE part. This would support the word immediately. 

As Drilled says IMMEDIATLY before a move. A charge is still considered a move 1.3 of the phase.

Drilled: 
Some regiments spend endless hours training to perform
complex manoeuvres.
Unless it is fleeing, a Drilled unit may perform a free redress
the ranks manoeuvre immediately before moving. Once this
manoeuvre is complete, the unit moves as normal. In addition,
a Drilled unit can march whilst within 8" of an enemy unit
without first having to make a Leadership test.


To me, its clear that drilled units can charge from a marching column with an immediate/free redress of ranks. 

 

[Fixxer2]

Why would you use words like immediately, free, and also elude to it in the first section of Maneuvering during a charge? "Unless stated otherwise." Drilled is a universal rule meaning its not reserved for a single army. It allows all armies to have veteran troops capable of this sort of play. 

[Murphy'sLawyer]

1 hour ago, Matt Israel said:

This drilled and charging thing needs to be addressed by GW. Until then best work that out with the person across the table from you.

I had to laugh when I watched this video and its conclusion was we just don’t know. Work it out with your opponent. 

[Brother Glacius]

1 hour ago, Fixxer2 said:

Why would you use words like immediately, free, and also elude to it in the first section of Maneuvering during a charge? "Unless stated otherwise." Drilled is a universal rule meaning its not reserved for a single army. It allows all armies to have veteran troops capable of this sort of play. 

Quote

At the start of your Movement phase, the first thing you
must do is declare which units (if any) will charge. Units
are not normally obliged to charge unless a special rule
states otherwise.

Hmmmmmm...'the first thing you MUST do...' seems pretty clear to me. You have declared your charge as the first thing in the movement phase. That negates a unit from doing a redress in ranks.

As you pointed out, Drilled allows you to redress ranks before you move...which is when, after declaring charges.

You move chargers after you declare all charges. So Drilled free move happen AFTER declaring. Nothing in Drilled states that it allows it to happen even if they are charging. So yeah, pretty clear that Drilled does not create an exception to the normal charge move restrictions.

[Matt Israel]

23 minutes ago, Murphy'sLawyer said:

I had to laugh when I watched this video and its conclusion was we just don’t know. Work it out with your opponent. 

Exactly. I don't see this being a huge issue.  If your close enough to charge your mostly likely close enough to be charged. In that case you best not be in a matching column.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

17 minutes ago, Matt Israel said:

Exactly. I don't see this being a huge issue.  If your close enough to charge your mostly likely close enough to be charged. In that case you best not be in a matching column.

I think some are saying they could use it to get around Impetuous so it’s less about marching for distance as a work around for a rule that is inconvenient. And I’m saying that as an O&G player where most of my units have this rule. I understand I’ll accept how ever this keyword is ruled by GW but I already have to work around this as my wolfriders have impetuous but also Feint Flee so you want to temp units to charge you but doing so you risk just having them charge that unit you’re trying to avoid. It’s just a risk management issue and they don’t have Drilled. 
 

The unknown factor is play tested so I can see how Drilled wouldn’t prevent them just charging in because that’s a risk you take when you purchase them and that unknown factor is part of their unit cost. If you think impetuous is bad you didn’t play Orcs with Animosity rules in previous additions. At least you charge in to get in the mix instead of beating your own guys or just stand there open to get charged on your opponent’s turn. That’s a game changing event that costed me many games. 
 

But I hear the argument, I just don’t feel sympathy if your knights charge in. That’s the risk you have to manage and plan for. It was play tested and is there for balance. Just my opinion. 

[Brother Glacius]

And to be clear, I think drilled should allow you to redress before charging. I just don't think the current wording is strong enough to guarantee it.