Newbie thoughts on Forgeworld, Unbound, Allies, etc

[Darthweasel]

Sorry in advance for the wall of text I just unleashed...

 

Had my first couple games of 40k in a couple decades the other night and really enjoyed it. Both guys I played against were cool opponents, had no issues with my slowness on rules, my idiot mistakes (like...planning to destroy his only unit within reach of the game-winning objective at that point in the game but going the other way instead...he offered to let me correct it, but I stuck by my stupidity) and thinking I had brought everything WYSIWYG when in truth I had plasma guns on the the models and thought they were melta..joking around, just generally enjoying pushing plastic around the table and rolling dice.

 

Anyway, for me it was a really fun experience. Enjoyed the games, knew from the time I built the list that I was handicapped by little things such as...not knowing the rules very well, having Long Fangs on the painting table, so only able to muster 2 Lascannons and 1 Assault Cannon to deal with anything with AV11+, no blast weapons for hordes...so I knew I would lose and most likely get tabled. In a shocking development...I was obliterated by AV11 models in the first game and overwhelmed by an Ork horde in the second. Which was more or less what I figured would happen from when I built the list so the outcome neither surprised nor bothered me.

 

Thing is, I knew going in that could/should/probably would happen. I also knew I have already purchased some of the answers to those two specific problems as well as some others my army cannot deal with as constructed. I am blessed with a fantastic job and an even more fantastic wife who actively encourages my profligate spending on toys. I can and will purchase the weapons I need to deal with those threats. Then I can get tabled purely on my incompetence instead of helping by not having the correct tools...

 

I enjoyed both games because of, in no particular order, the opponents, the newness, the chance to roll dozens of dice, getting the models I spent so many Blazer games painting during time-outs on the table, being in AC instead of under the blazing sun...but I can see how some people might not have if they had a different mindset than I do.

 

And there you get to the crux of it. With the new rules allowing LoW, Forgeworld, allies, unbound and so forth, I think for those who are...lets say less fortunate in their hobbying, there are now some HUGE barriers to getting into 40k.

 

Two new kids are going to start playing at the shop. One picked Astra Miltarwhateveritscalleddon'tcareenoughttolookuptherightname and the other wants to go Grey Knights. Both are not inexpensive armies to get started with.

 

If they go out and try to play and are running into Baneblades*, double Imperial Knights and other stuff they A) have no way to deal with in their starter boxes and B) probably do not have the disposable income to buy what they need.

 

It is pretty expensive to keep up with all the new codexes, dataslates, forgeworlds, etc. It is even more time intensive to learn all the new rules for all these things. 

 

I like all these things. I am all about variety and I plan to field some fun stuff like these myself once I figure out a little bit about the game and what fits my playstyle. I did not, do not, and will not advocate their removal from the game.

 

What I do think, though is 40K is kind of reaching the point where the barrier for entry to some new players is almost too steep. I almost wonder if there should be something akin to what Magic has or had where there are different levels of games perhaps?

 

For example, I have a couple people I am introducing to the game this weekend. As I am providing the models, I plan to build very old-school style armies for both sides...straight out of one codex each, using the old FoC. I will make sure each army has a tougher model and something to deal with these tougher models but it will be a pretty simplistic start to get our feet under us...learn the basic, then start adding the frosting, Skittles, and Mountain dew to the cake.

 

I think it is so important to reiterate; not everyone needs that and for myself, I prefer playing with/against the fun stuff (allies, forgeworld, LoW, unbound) and am in no way, shape or form to be construed as arguing against that...

 

But I do think there should be some sort of starter game for those who will not be able to cope with it.

 

A few days ago I watched a game with a new player whose list literally could not hurt a third of his opponents models. His S4 weapons not being able to have their 1-2 shots each tough those AV12 enemies while they were unleashing 12-14 shots back at him could not have been too fun I would think...and I think we as gamers want to encourage the growth of our community, not the shrinking of it through negative experiences.

 

It is a tough, in many ways unfair question. If/when I have Imperial Knights assembled/painted/included in my list, I want to play them. I assume the same is true for my opponent. If he wants to run an all-Riptide army, I want him to be able to. 

 

Just wondering if there is a way to accommodate both...the group who would benefit from more basic options for opponent's list and the more advanced player who wants to bring the Leafblower/Seer Council back by C'tan goodness. 

 

Thoughts? I clearly enjoyed my first experience and want the same for others so I have more people out there to crush me like the unworthy ant I am...

 

*not what I ran into. I actually thought both lists were very reasonable, I just did not have my models built/painted

[Aventine]

"Just wondering if there is a way to accommodate both...the group who would benefit from more basic options for opponent's list and the more advanced player who wants to bring the Leafblower/Seer Council back by C'tan goodness."

 

There is, though it is the same as it has always been; communication. Talking about your lack of experience or lack of meta-busting tools with your opponent and letting them go from there. Pick up games are a bit difficult these days because of that, but that's how it is now.

 

Or you could only play Maelstrom missions; they're so wacky that army lists and relative skills hardly matter.

[Steel Angel]

One way is to show off kit bashes and scratch built. The forgeworld unit I used I built myself and I thought it looked pretty kewl.

[Irondragon]

Your not wrong it is hard to get into the hobby. If my sons become interested I'm not sure how I will get them armies, ebay and trade possible. That being said I'm a fluff guy so love all the new stuff.

You just need to find guys you enjoy playing with where honestly getting tabled is something that you laugh about. It's about the process to me (except painting that process sucks) playing with people I know I will have a good time with and if my long fangs get wiped out from 30 hits from another long fang squad it goes in the awsome file.

[Steel Angel]

Also it would be easier for new bloods to start if some were more laxed on that GW only rule. Lots of good models out there to use that aren't so hard on the wallet.

[Aventine]

Also it would be easier for new bloods to start if some were more laxed on that GW only rule. Lots of good models out there to use that aren't so hard on the wallet.

 

Who has that rule? GW Store is the only place I am aware of where that is a rule. If it is just someones personal rule then why are you playing with someone with such a stick up their rear?

[Steel Angel]

Anyone thats been playing for a while knows it's not true, But when your starting and look on the net it can seem that way. I know of a store here that's not GW that has it right on their web site. But if you go play there you will see it's not true. So in the end it's a assumption they get that needs to be corrected.

[Darthweasel]

I think that is one reason the place we had our game is so good...I have seen games there with paper space marines to get people into it. Good atmosphere for sure.

[scottshoemaker]

Your question is extremely valid.  I think the first and most important thing is to reiterate what Aventine said, communication.  Any good player who's in this collaborative hobby will accept a new player with a limited collection.  The point is to have fun after all.  This is a perfect situation to play a different type of game, maybe something more mission focused more akin to a big Kill Team game.

 

That being said this is now a really expensive hobby to get into.  You more or less have to rely on the kindness of others purging their collections to gain a foot hold. 

The good news is that there has been a quiet movement here at Ordo to address just this problem.  The idea of collecting "cast offs" and making them available for new players at a reasonable cost has been kicked around.  With OFCC coming up maybe this would be a good time to reintroduce the idea.

 

So where does leave our new players?  It's up to those that know to help guide the learning.  Most of the time it's as simple as offering advise, allowing takebacks, etc.  Other times it's appropriate to play a lopsided battle, giving the new player more points or taking less.  Post it notes on proxy models go a long way.

 

We need to remember that we all have choices for our leisure time, and many people are choosing video games over wargaming simply due to cost.  This hobby's strength is the social aspect.  So it's up to the established players to reinforce that.

[Steel Angel]

one of the ways i was introduced to warhammer was a squire system.(I started with fantesy) basicly a older player was given an new player to join in their games with an add amout of pionts that the new person had. IE.if older player was playing a 2000pt game the Squire would add his 500pts to play on his side. if the other player didn't have a squire he would just add that many pts to his army.

 

I tell you what it was assume to play big games like that and learn as i played, and nothing made you feel better then when one of your units did something big. Plus it made me what to get a full army of my own.

[BrainFireBob]

Fair question. Personally, I have one huge army (28k points SM) and several smaller (14k Chaos, 8 k DA).

 

I always bring at least two armies. I frequently loan models of approximately the right size to proxy- granted, I don't have any Knights or such, but it's worked out for me.

[Brother Glacius]

One way to introduce people to the hobby is with lower point games. Also, it isn't too hard to come up with a simple list of restrictions to keep units within reach. Stuff like, no AV14 models, no models with 2+ save, etc. You can take out some of the tougher elements that are RPS (rock, paper, scissor). Let them play the game where everything has a chance to kill everything else.

[Steel Angel]

And plus older players know places to go to make this hobby much cheaper. We just got to learn and share. Lol I know I keep some secrets. Like where to buy stuff like forgeworld models for half price.

[Guest]

Two new kids are going to start playing at the shop. One picked Astra Miltarwhateveritscalleddon'tcareenoughttolookuptherightname and the other wants to go Grey Knights. Both are not inexpensive armies to get started with.

Both of those are rather bad armies to start with. GK, because their codex is now mostly in FAQ format and because the army is very intensive in special rules. IG/Astra whatever, because this is one of the more demanding armies in terms of model costs/count.

 

Space marines and orks are probably the best starter armies. Orks because you can easily covert anything into an ork vehicle and because you can easily memorize their characteristic profiles (lots of repeat numbers). Space marines (as in codex space marines) are easy for the memorization of statistics and for the general forgiving quality of the army. 

 

In terms of coping with super-heavies and such, it certainly isn't as impossible as it could be. A baneblade, in example, has rear armor 12, so your Astra Militarium and GK standard models can glance it in assault with their krak grenades - it's a difficult way to destroy them, but that's a starter box solution. The basic melta gun, which GK don't have in abundance, but IG do, does present a tried and true solution for super heavies. The GK, on the other hand, can tear through a baneblade with a basic daemon hammer combined with their standard hammer hand psychic power (see FAQ). I know, these are close range solutions, but those are very basic ones that both armies have. For longer range options, both the astra and the GK have tons of options without allies.

 

I do think that GW often picks lousy models for their battleforce boxes. I'd suggest away from certain armies starter boxes just because they don't present a viable army to new players that just intend to field those models.

[InfestedKerrigan]

And plus older players know places to go to make this addiction much cheaper. We just got to learn and share. Lol I know I keep some secrets. Like where to buy stuff like cocaine for half price.

 

It's not really cocaine, it's just like cocaine, for less.  It's best to not ask too many questions.

 

 

 

 

 

Having not read the new book yet and basing my opinion on things I've read, take it with a grain of salt.  We meet up to play, you ask what kind of deck I have with me.  I have a Legacy Sliver (Unbound Bugs) deck.  You have your Type 1 Swarm deck (New Orcsies hoard).  Do either of us have any other decks (lists) with us to bring balance to the force?  Are we fine with any imbalance that may or may not exist as a result of the different formats we constructed around?  

 

Communication.  It doesn't really matter what you bring, just make sure to talk about your feelings.

[Darthweasel]

the communication is a good call...IFthe guy knows enough to communicate. For example, even though I wasn't actually playing the game, I had a copy of the 6th edition rules, read a few sites like this one, Warhammer Forum, Bolter and chainsword, Space Wolves grey blog, Dakka Dakka, 3++, etc. and had watched a few games. I knew what I could potentially see and was not surprised by it. I was what you might call an educated non-player.

 

The true newbie to whom nuanced discussions of how effective melta is, back armor targeting, how many hull points something might have probably does not know enough to ask the right questions. They are more likely than not to be unaware of formation, Imperial Knights, Stompas, Ror other things that may or may not be found in the basic codex. 

 

To put it another way, here are the things that surprised me in the second game I played:

 

I did a quick mathematical calculation and decided to rapid fire at an Orc horde with Grey Hunters rather than charge. In retrospect, my math was off in several regards; I could have fired my bolt pistols, thus losing 10 shots, not 20, I would have gotten most or all of those shots back in the form of cc attacks depending on how his Overwatch went, I would have stopped him from getting something like 13 or 14 bonus attacks (I had whittled his horde down some) and he would not have had a potential Hammer of Wrath (which his other unit did get). In one decision I made a minimum of three mistakes. 

 

A new player in that situation might have remembered the bolt pistols but not see the other errors. (or he might have, who knows)

 

However, in the first game he would be more likely to be surprised by the  deadly centurion, mortise dreadnought unleashing dozens of shots a turn...stuff he looks at his codex and thinks, "I have nothing that competes with that".

 

It is a matter of information, nothing more. I know the questions to ask, I just wanted a game and don't care what the other guy brings. If my friends in the Starving Crazed Weasels were to show up, though, it WOULD matter...

 

Tomorrow I am introducing a couple of them to the game and I made the armies.

1) All 505 points. Dark Angels have a  tac squad with a meltagun and missile launcher, 5 terminators with power fists (and 1 cyclone)

2) Tau have fireblade commander, firewarriors, and 3 Crisis suits including burst cannons, fusion blasters and shield drones.

3)Space Wolves have a dreadnoght with Multimelta, 10 grey hunters with 2 plasma guns

4) Chaos Space Marines have 10 basic w/a couple flamers, 5 terminators includung a reaper autocannon and a couple chainfists

will be building the space smurfs shortly with the same concept in mind; something hard to crack, something strong enough to crack hard-to-crack stuff, a basic unit and a basic hero. 

 

Figure to get them a couple games each, let them see the basics, then next time break out the hammerheads, land raiders, rhino rush, etc.

 

My point is they don't know the game, so they don't have the information to ask the right questions to get an entry level game...true of many people when they first start playing. I would disagree with Paxmiles in a minor way...I love the starter boxes and for people wanting to play the appropriate armies think they are a great starting point...as long as they are playing people using those for the bulk of their army 

[Aventine]

I would guess near 100% of players who are not introduced via a friend or playgroup (who would know how to accommodate said new player) fall into the "educated non-player" group you describe.