InfestedKerrigan Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 I was thinking about doing this as Loyalists, not my Nightlords that I was mentioning previously. The list is pretty straight forward, the Archangels Sanguine Formation and a 3 Knight Primary detachment. 30 Marines, 3 Knights, 1 Stormraven. Not very many models. Lots of room for unique modeling in so few models without feeling overwhelmed. My question is, how would you suggest progressing it in a League environment? I can't do the formation until 1000 points, so I'd be running it as an unbound list if I'm not adding anything else? I mean, if all the Sternguard have Combis, I can't run it as 2 x 5 man tact squads. Not without using magnets. Although, with 30 Marines being the max, that's not too much in the way of magnet work. Thoughts? Do I need to concern myself with Psychics in 7th? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 You do need to concern yourself with psychics, but it's really hard to stop them without HEAVILY investing in your own psychic phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Meh. Psychics are cool and all but sometimes just assaulting their face is enough defence. It is like flyers. They are a problem but sometimes you can just get around it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 Meh. Psychics are cool and all but sometimes just assaulting their face is enough defence. It is like flyers. They are a problem but sometimes you can just get around it. Agree. Still, if you don't include a psyker, you are denying yourself an entire phase of the game, in 7th. You do need to concern yourself with psychics, but it's really hard to stop them without HEAVILY investing in your own psychic phase. In regards to stopping powers, it's stopping the opponent's defensive buffs which requires heavy investment. You can stop powers directed at your own models with relatively low investment, especially with psychic hood/adamantium will. The nasty powers of 7th are defensive buffs cast by the opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 The thing with psykers is if you have no psykers you don't have any phase no matter what and you lose some dice for dispelling. If you have one psyker you still lose out on the phase if someone has way more psykers as they just shut you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 The thing with psykers is if you have no psykers you don't have any phase no matter what and you lose some dice for dispelling. If you have one psyker you still lose out on the phase if someone has way more psykers as they just shut you out. Yes and no. The key thing is that if they dedicate too much into psychic defense, they can impair their army against other threats. Example, level 1 psyker. I have 2 powers. If these are both blessings, requiring 1 warp charge each, odds are in my favor of casting at least 1 power. It's 4+ to cast, and opponent needs 6s to dispel. Granted, they can certainly get lucky, but odds are certainly in my favor to cast, and they have an uphill battle to stop me. For math. Level 1 psyker (2 powers). 1+d6 in the psychic die pool is 2-7. For this, let's call this 4. Casting on 4+, so I dedicate 2 dice per spell, granting a theoretical 2 successes at the minimum warp charge requirement. Opponent must dedicate 6 dice per warp charge they intend to deny to ensure success. So, in order to deny both spells, they'd theoretically need 12 dice. That's 9 levels casters and 3 rolled for the turn. A level 1 psyker is dirt cheap in most armies, SM are looking at 65pts minimum - other armies pay less. If the opponent feels the need to dedicate 9 levels of psyker to stop two powers, even with eldar and their dirt cheap warlock horde, this is an expensive prospect. If my 65pt psyker is shut down like this, I don't really feel bad. Now, 9 levels psykers on offense is pretty dangerous. It also makes them pretty likely to perils. Mind you, player could just get lucky. But that really isn't something you should build a list around: anti-luck tactics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted January 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 I could free up 600-750 points by taking a single Knight or Gerantius instead, but that would put me at 2 formations plus a LOW. Is this permissible in your local tourney scene? I could use those points on a Nemesis Strike Force with a 10 man Termie Squad and two Lvl 3 Libbies. One of the libs could ride with the sternguard of with Terms as needed. It would look something like: Archangel Sanguine, Nemesis Strike Force, Imperial Knight LOW 10 Vanguard Vet 10 Vanguard Vet 10 BA Sternguard Vet w/Lvl 3 GK Libby in Storm Raven 10 GK Termies w/Lvl 3 GK Libby Imperial Knight 30 PA 12 TDA 1 Storm Raven 1 Knight Still a Low Body Count allowing for the easy unique modeling options. A lot less physical fire power, but is it a more viable list? Could I do something similar with Inquisition instead of GKs? Could I get a hefty handful of Psychic Power Dice and whatever else I needed using them? Although, if I went that route, I think I'd want to have them be daemon worshippers and try for summoning Khornate Daemons, cuz B4tBG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Most of the really scary powers are Blessings, and you need to be throwing around 10+ dice to have more than a longshot chance of shutting those down. Unless generating that much Warp Charge is also a core part of your offensive plan, it's probably not worth going for it. Punching the Psyker in the face repeatedly with a Lightning Claw usually works pretty well as Psychic Defense, even if it's a bit slower. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Most of the really scary powers are Blessings, and you need to be throwing around 10+ dice to have more than a longshot chance of shutting those down. Unless generating that much Warp Charge is also a core part of your offensive plan, it's probably not worth going for it. Punching the Psyker in the face repeatedly with a Lightning Claw usually works pretty well as Psychic Defense, even if it's a bit slower. Though part of what the blessings are so scary is the ease at which witchfire powers can be denied. Those summoning powers can be interesting too, though I'll admit, I've only seen them used once, and even then, it wasn't really needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Even without taking into account that Witchfires and Maledictions can often be denied more easily, they're still not as scary. I'd far rather have one of my Units hit with Paroxysm or Symphony of Pain or something than have to deal with an Invisible opposing Unit or a GUO all hopped up on Iron Arm. Some of the Witchfires are nasty, especially if an opponent manages to catch several of your Units clumped up with one of the good Novas, but it's generally possible to get just as much damage-dealing capacity in more reliably just by loading up on guns. The Summoning spells, used judiciously, can be excellent. If they're just spammed mindlessly, the list will fall apart, but used well, they can provide an excellent boost to Board Control and extra hitting power just where you need it. Especially in Maelstrom, being able to drop fast stuff like Seekers to tear around and go for Objectives can be amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted January 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 If I went the Malefic route, I think I'd paint up a couple of each u.....dammit, then I may as well play CD if I'm talking about having a few each of 20 different units.... I think I'll stay away from Malefic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 I could free up 600-750 points by taking a single Knight or Gerantius instead, but that would put me at 2 formations plus a LOW. Is this permissible in your local tourney scene? Typically, 2 detachments is the cap. LoWs are normally taken as part of the CAD, so aren't a detachment of their own. Even without taking into account that Witchfires and Maledictions can often be denied more easily, they're still not as scary.. Some are. They are typically contextual, of course, as you need viable targets to make the power impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 What Witchfires/Maledictions are you as scared of as an Invisible DeathStar? Or even a sub-DeathStar Unit like 20 Invisible Khorne Dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilence Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 I was thinking about doing this as Loyalists, not my Nightlords that I was mentioning previously. The list is pretty straight forward, the Archangels Sanguine Formation and a 3 Knight Primary detachment. 30 Marines, 3 Knights, 1 Stormraven. Not very many models. Lots of room for unique modeling in so few models without feeling overwhelmed. My question is, how would you suggest progressing it in a League environment? I can't do the formation until 1000 points, so I'd be running it as an unbound list if I'm not adding anything else? I mean, if all the Sternguard have Combis, I can't run it as 2 x 5 man tact squads. Not without using magnets. Although, with 30 Marines being the max, that's not too much in the way of magnet work. Thoughts? Do I need to concern myself with Psychics in 7th? The first list would be fun to model, with so few dudes you could go crazy with detail. As far as league goes, I think most folks would be ok with 'these guys have bolters not combi's', if you explained the idea you were after in the end. As far as I know most metas are using 2 sources. /shrug As far as psychics I think the above posts cover most points fairly well. I could free up 600-750 points by taking a single Knight or Gerantius instead, but that would put me at 2 formations plus a LOW. Is this permissible in your local tourney scene? I could use those points on a Nemesis Strike Force with a 10 man Termie Squad and two Lvl 3 Libbies. One of the libs could ride with the sternguard of with Terms as needed. It would look something like: Archangel Sanguine, Nemesis Strike Force, Imperial Knight LOW 10 Vanguard Vet 10 Vanguard Vet 10 BA Sternguard Vet w/Lvl 3 GK Libby in Storm Raven 10 GK Termies w/Lvl 3 GK Libby Imperial Knight 30 PA 12 TDA 1 Storm Raven 1 Knight Still a Low Body Count allowing for the easy unique modeling options. A lot less physical fire power, but is it a more viable list? Could I do something similar with Inquisition instead of GKs? Could I get a hefty handful of Psychic Power Dice and whatever else I needed using them? Although, if I went that route, I think I'd want to have them be daemon worshippers and try for summoning Khornate Daemons, cuz B4tBG Fun again with low model count. As far as more viable it would depend on you play style, your areas meta, and mission set up. It covers the psychic phase much better ;p. Inquisition could do the similar number of warp charges (5), but for a significantly lower points investment. Around 300 points'ish if you go 2 malleus inquisitors (bare bones ML1) and 3 squads of minimum hench squads (3 man) with a ML1 psyker with a rhino for each of the squads. You could get rid of the transports for more savings, but they're pretty squishy :p If I went the Malefic route, I think I'd paint up a couple of each u.....dammit, then I may as well play CD if I'm talking about having a few each of 20 different units.... I think I'll stay away from Malefic. Lol. ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 What Witchfires/Maledictions are you as scared of as an Invisible DeathStar? Or even a sub-DeathStar Unit like 20 Invisible Khorne Dogs? Seems rather irrational to be scared of invisible things.... For a more serious answer, there are a few, which in the right context, are amazing. Invisibility is also contextual, as aside from making a unit harder to hit, it doesn't actually do any damage or make a unit tougher in any respect. On a side note, you realize that you can automatically hit invisible units with nova powers, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayne_Cobbb Posted January 1, 2015 Report Share Posted January 1, 2015 Seems rather irrational to be scared of invisible things.... For a more serious answer, there are a few, which in the right context, are amazing. Invisibility is also contextual, as aside from making a unit harder to hit, it doesn't actually do any damage or make a unit tougher in any respect. On a side note, you realize that you can automatically hit invisible units with nova powers, right? Have you ever played against an invisible unit? i forgot about those all powerful nova powers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Have you ever played against an invisible unit? A few times. First game opponent had CSM and kept making their Forgefiend invisible. My my marines ignored it and killed most of the rest of his army. Had a more recent game against a thunderwolf blob made invisible. My list was terrible that game, I don't think invisible really contributed much, as I think that blob would have mulched my army anyway. Still, yeah, it was annoying. Like I said, very contextual. Most of the witchfire/nova/maledictions can be awesome providing the right circumstances. In example, the Objuration Mechanicum is amazing against large units with poor saves and ranged weapons (guard/ork blobs). It is also one of the few psychic AT options to hit an invisible vehicle or zooming flyer, as it's a malediction that inflicts a haywire hit. This power doesn't do any damage to infantry units that just don't shoot for a turn, which can be a weak point. Not exactly very potent against melee units. It's especially bad against TEQ units and MCs, as they tend to be unaffected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 If you're playing against people who are wasting Invisibility on a Forge Fiend, I can understand how you've gotten that misconception. And saying that it doesn't do damage is completely missing the point. It takes Units that can dish it out but not take it, and turns them into Units that do both. The other thing is that you keep saying they're contextual. That is, again, the main point. I can control a lot of the context against my Opponent's Witchfires and Maledictions via my own Army selection and positioning, but they control the context for their Blessings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 If you're playing against people who are wasting Invisibility on a Forge Fiend, I can understand how you've gotten that misconception. And saying that it doesn't do damage is completely missing the point. It takes Units that can dish it out but not take it, and turns them into Units that do both. The other thing is that you keep saying they're contextual. That is, again, the main point. I can control a lot of the context against my Opponent's Witchfires and Maledictions via my own Army selection and positioning, but they control the context for their Blessings. I agree the forgefiend was a waste of the casting. It did succeed in keeping the forgefiend alive, though... I do think that invisibility not actually doing any damage is a valid point, as you risk perils and must have a decent psyker just to get the power off, while the power itself doesn't actually do anything if the opponent doesn't direct attacks/shooting at the invisible unit. As for units that dish out, but cannot take damage. I'll admit, when seeing or hearing about scary uses of the power, I rarely hear about a defensively weak unit being buffed. It's typically used to make an already durable unit, even more durable. Perfect example, thunderwolf cavalry, which are not exactly on the weak end of units to begin with. As for context, that one is ever present in 40k. You can certainly manipulate it, both your opponent and yourself, but it is a constant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Jump pack movement doesn't do any damage. Deep Strike doesn't do any damage. Feel No Pain doesn't do any damage. Tank Hunter doesn't do any damage. Nova Reactors don't do any damage (to the enemy, anyways.) 2+ rerollable saves don't do any damage. Casting five copies of Summoning every turn doesn't do any damage. Holding objectives doesn't do any damage. Not everything in the game is about doing damage. The fact that Invisibility cannot, in and of itself, hurt a unit is a fairly meaningless assertion. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Jump pack movement doesn't do any damage. Deep Strike doesn't do any damage. Feel No Pain doesn't do any damage. Tank Hunter doesn't do any damage. Nova Reactors don't do any damage (to the enemy, anyways.) 2+ rerollable saves don't do any damage. Casting five copies of Summoning every turn doesn't do any damage. Holding objectives doesn't do any damage. Not everything in the game is about doing damage. The fact that Invisibility cannot, in and of itself, hurt a unit is a fairly meaningless assertion. Completely true and good examples of contextual abilities. JPs are worthless if the enemy comes to you before you can use them. DS can mean units never arrive, or arrive in bad locations, or on turns you don't need them. FNP does nothing if opponent always uses ID weapons. Tank Hunters doesn't nothing against non-vehicles. Nova reactors can kill your tau if you suck at rolling... 2+ re-rollable saves are meaningless if opponent denies your saves altogether. Spamming summoning would be pretty cool.... Disaster for kill points, I suppose Holding objectives is useful, no question, but objectives should not be held at the cost of victory (objective is in obscure location and unit holding it is needed elsewhere). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think you missed the point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I think you missed the point. I saw your point, you were responding to me, but you were missing my point. I was getting my point back on track. The point of saying invisibility doesn't do damage, isn't trying to say invisibility is lacking, but to say that it is contextual in use. Just like the above. Invisibility is amazing in the right context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I saw your point, you were responding to me, but you were missing my point. I was getting my point back on track. The point of saying invisibility doesn't do damage, isn't trying to say invisibility is lacking, but to say that it is contextual in use. Just like the above. Invisibility is amazing in the right context. In what context is Invisibility not amazing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 When I put it on my platoon command squad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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