Space Marine List Help

[deadwing34]

I currently have a fairly sizable Dark Angels army and I want to play with it as a “counts as” Space Marine army. Dark Angels are not supposed to be so great and I have heard Space Marines have access to this thing called a gravity gun. I am also interested in potentially using Space Wolfs or Dark Angels as an ally. I am leaning towards not using fortifications or flyers, but I would like to include my Knight.  I have only been playing for a few years, so I need some help list building.

 

Typically you see people post up their list and people comment on it. I thought I would try a different approach, more of a blank canvas. I figured I would list out all the models I own and see what people can come up with. My goal is to try and use as much of what I currently own and buy stuff to fill in the gaps. I am really interested in a friendly “Take All Comers” Battle-forged list. I will be using this list for the current Escalation league (Maelstrom heavy missions) at Ordo. I am thinking 2000 points; I can pare it down from there.

 

I know this is a bit of a big ask, but any help would be appreciated. Even if it is; oh you should take this unit for sure; or here is a list that I use that uses some of the stuff you have that works well; or go to this website for some great list ideas etc. Anyone that helps out and wants to challenge my list can feel free to play against me on Tuesdays at the club. Thanks all.

 

SM Primary / DA or SW Ally / Imperial Knight Detachment

Battle-forged TAC list

2000 points

Maelstrom Missions

 

Generic counts as SM/Imperial Models:

1 Bastion

1 Skyshield Landing Pad

1 Imperial Knight Paladin with Rapid fire battle cannon / 2X Heavy Stubbers / Reaper Chainsword

1 Landraider with TL Lascannons / TL Heavy Bolter / Multi-Melta

1 Dreadnaught with Assault Cannon / Heavy Flamer / Power Fist

1 Predator TL Lascannon / 2X Lascannons

1 Land Speeder with Heavy Bolter / Typhoon Missle Launcher 

22 Tactical SM with Boltguns

2 Tactical SM with Plasma Guns

2 Tactical SM with Plasma Cannons

1 Tactical SM with Missile Launcher

1 Tactical SM Sergeant with Storm Bolter / Power Fist

1 Tactical SM Sergeant with Storm Bolter / Chain Sword

1 Tactical SM Sergeant with Plasma Pistol / Chain Sword

3 Scouts with Sniper Rifles

1 Scout with Missile Launcher

1 Scout Sergeant with Sniper Rifle

1 Biker with TL Boltgun

1 Biker with TL Boltgun / Plasma Gun

1 Biker Sergeant TL Boltgun / Chain Sword

2 Terminators with Storm Bolter / Powerfist

1 Terminator with Assault Cannon / Powerfist

1 Terminator with Storm Bolter / Chainfist

1 Terminator with Heavy Flamer / Chainfist

1 Terminator with a Pair of Lightning Claws

1 Terminator Apothecary with Storm Bolter

1 Terminator Sergeant with Storm Bolter / Force Sword

1 Company Master with Combi-Plasma / Force Sword

1 Librarian with Bolt Pistol / Force Sword

1 Interrogator Chaplain with Plasma Pistol / Crozius Arcanum

 

Dark Angels Specific Models:

1 Nephilim Jetfighter

1 Belial

1 Ezekiel

5 Deathwing Knights (might be able to use as Thunderhammer Stormshield Terminators)

1 Terminator with Halberd of Caliban

1 Terminator Banner Bearer with Storm Bolter / Powerfist

[fluger]

Let me start working on this and I'll get back to you.  This is actually the best way to get list help IMO.  

[fluger]

What are the pred and dred armed with?

[fluger]

There's not a lot to work with and I'm pretty much using all the models you have to get even close to 2k.  

 

If you want to make this list more potent, there's a lot of fat to cut.

 

Librarian:  65 pts

 

10 Tactical Marines:  170

  Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon

 

10 Tactical Marines:  170

  Plasmagun, Plasma Cannon

 

5 Tactical Marines:  75

  Missile Launcher

 

5 Scouts:  67

  4 Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

 

6 Assault Terminators:  265 + 250

  5 TH/SS, 1 Lightning Claw

  Land Raider Crusader:  Multimelta

 

1 Venerable Dreadnought:  125

  Multimelta

 

3 Space Marine Bikers:  78

 

Land Speeder:  80

 2x Multimeltas

 

1 Predator:  140

  TL Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons 

 

Bastion:  125

  Quad Gun

 

Knight Paladin:  375

 

1985

[deadwing34]

I updated the original post with the load-outs of my vehicles, I have the extra bits to change them out though.

 

Like I said thought willing/wanting to get some new models to help out my army list.

 

Which SM Chapter should I use?

[fluger]

I'm not 100% sure on where you'd want to go with a list like this.  The barebones of it is pretty sparse.  

 

With more standard infantry style Space Marines I'd lean on the Iron Fist CT.  Get yourself a box of devastators and make a devy squad with lascannons and put them in the bastion.  Take the spare pieces and put heavy bolters on the tactical squads.  

 

Now you have a firebase at least.  

[deadwing34]

What about Centurions I heard they are really good with gravity guns etc.

 

Do you mean Imperial Fists or Iron Hands?

[VonVilkee]

I'd say based on the Bolter suggestion he was going with imperial fists. It is a good one if you are interested in lots of infantry shooting.

 

For my lists I always start with a Cheapish utility character and four full tac squads.

 

You keep asking about centurions and while they are good they have some huge weaknesses. Using the Knight you prolly don't want to invest in those expensive (cash and points models).

 

Chapter tactics really dictate model selection. With your models imperial fists (reroll ones with bolt dieting weapons, not sternguard), or iron hands for a snowballs chance of surviving would be good.

 

I'd start dark angles ally belial with termies (still troops right?) as choice of turn to arrive with no scatter is spiffy. Support this with the Knight, a space marine libby, and others. If you are good at remembering one use things I'd recommend ultra Marines tactics and smattering of stuff the choices they have are super powerful when remembered and used at the right time. This would also allow you tiggy (Special Character libby) who really shines in a support role.

 

With Marines they are an attrition army you can take lots of the basic guys and just hang on using objective secured to get points but you will need transport. Either drop pod or rhino... I'll post a few lists run over the weekend and what I would run with a knight

[VonVilkee]

Centurions through the super competitive lens. Good read.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/01/20/anatomy-of-a-centurionstar/?ct=t(News_From_The_Frontline_11_20_2015)

[Guest]

What about Centurions I heard they are really good with gravity guns etc.

 

Do you mean Imperial Fists or Iron Hands?

Centurions are solid, but you will have to include a protection/transportation unit in order to field them. Unlike terminators, they can't teleport and they lack invulnerable saves. They also can't overwatch and have tactical squad leadership. This means they die or flee pretty quick without attached ICs or land raider/storm raven transports.

 

He's talking about Imperial Fists, as they grant re-rolls to bolter weapons (like the heavy bolters he suggests adding to your tactical squads). I think the chapter tactics very much affects the play-style of the army and you should pick one that benefits how you play your army.

 

Belial only makes terminators troops if in primary detachment. One of the many reasons DA suffer with that codex. They also pay around 40pts more per 5 terminators over SM terminator units. GK, on the other hand, can sport a 165pt TDA troops unit with full land raider access and don't required a special character at all. Very irritating for DA players....

[VonVilkee]

Well boo serves me right for trying to use some stuff I don't have the book for...

 

A play style vision would be really helpful.

[deadwing34]

I am new and don't really have a specific play style, I like to be shooty but I also like assaulting and a bit of psychic stuff as well. I orginally picked SM/DA because they have a lot of different options etc. I just want something that is a TAC list that will work well with Malestorm missions etc.

 

Thanks for all of the help so far guys, I dont want to spend a bunch of money on units that are not going to help me much, I like the look of Centurions but I am not set on using them.

[Guest]

Well boo serves me right for trying to use some stuff I don't have the book for...

 

A play style vision would be really helpful.

White Scars lean towards bike armies.

Imperial Fists lean towards bolt weapons and devastators (including centurion versions).

Salamanders lean towards flamer weapons (and melta if you include vulcan).

Black Templars lean towards melee armies and notably cannot field psykers.

Ironhands lean towards vehicle armies.

Raven Guard lean towards either jump infantry, or non-bulky models.

Ultramarines are very balanced tactically and have the most special characters. If ultras have a specialization, it's in being average against everything.

 

EDIT: FW chapter tactics exist too, plus the above is just "leaning." By no means are the above armys forced to play as such. The chapter tactics just make it easier to field a successful army in those areas.

[pretre]

 If ultras have a specialization, it's Tigurius

Fixed that for you.

[Guest]

Fixed that for you.

Not a fan of tiggy, personally.

[CaptainA]

Centurions through the super competitive lens. Good read.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/01/20/anatomy-of-a-centurionstar/?ct=t(News_From_The_Frontline_11_20_2015)

That's me!

[CaptainA]

I think you need some mobility in your list. So Rhinos or Drop Pods or something like that for your tacs.

 

Centurions are really cool, but need support to be very effective. Either keep em cheap and have a delivery system like a Land Raider Blood Angel Drop Pod, or even a Stormraven.

[deadwing34]

That's me!

Good article but a lot of hassle to make it work it seems like. I think I need something a bit more straight forward.

[CaptainA]

Good article but a lot of hassle to make it work it seems like. I think I need something a bit more straight forward.

The Centurionstar is a specific army build that you need to put pretty much the whole army focus into. There are some ideas that you can use, Librarian support, protection, etc. But I would advise against it as it is a very competitive build and not TAC.

[VonVilkee]

With the idea of wanting a little bit of everything go ultras. Take tiggy for your HQ and read your chapter tactics carefully, know when to unleash twin linked tacs to clear an objective by fire follow up the next turn with a re rollable assault! Tigirius is a good strong Cheapish psychic phase so you can realistically play in all phases. I'll work up a list with this in mind based on your list of models soon.

 

Terminators with a better chance at connecting on the assault so much fun and flexibility with the ultras!

[VonVilkee]

Btw I play supplemental imperial fists, the sentinels of terra, with a heavy slant towards drop pods. Swarm Bolter Marines ftw typically. It is an experience in attrition and resource management.

[Guest]

With the idea of wanting a little bit of everything go ultras. Take tiggy for your HQ and read your chapter tactics carefully, know when to unleash twin linked tacs to clear an objective by fire follow up the next turn with a re rollable assault! Tigirius is a good strong Cheapish psychic phase so you can realistically play in all phases. I'll work up a list with this in mind based on your list of models soon.

 

Terminators with a better chance at connecting on the assault so much fun and flexibility with the ultras!

Tiggy isn't the only ultra special character worth taking. Both Sicarius and Telion have quite a bit of tactical value without committing your army to a particular build.

[VonVilkee]

All right came up with some stuff.

 

First off ultra marine tactics and only two purchases rhinos.

 

Tigirius (I'd recommend converting that libby to have a stave any way the strength bonus is awesome) you could use your existing libby.

 

Full Tactical squads are awesome combated to 5 bolters with no real weapons forces opponents to divert fire they don't want to.

 

Two 10 man squads with plasma guns cuz you have them. This is where I'd recommend transport of sticking with mostly the models you have I'd say rhino. Drop pods are cool but require a bit of a theme to make use, either lots or a super shooty unit in a single.

 

The scout squad you have is odd but serviceable.

 

Add in the Knight and venerable dread (assault cannon as is), the dread could get a drop pod if you want to spend the money but isn't a great choice for it. Different gun would change that.

 

Puts us at 1132, over half your points. This next stuff is really just working with what you have...

 

7 devestators 2 plasma and the missile a place for tiggy could switch a marine above to this squad and put tiggy up there but I like combat squading. This squad makes use of the relentless ultra thing helping the plasma cannons get better shots.

 

 

5 assault termies all hammer shield in the landraider with multi Melta. With the lack of anti tank/sky fire you have I actually like the twin Las here for versatility.

 

5 terminators assault cannon 2 chain fists and add a locator beacon on a Sargent somewhere, 240 points this is what I would consider dropping later or swapping with your bikes and predator after some playing to identify gaps. Idea is deep strike to support stuff already in play.

 

This should come to 2k and is reasonable but lacks a direction. I feel it is a little weak anti tank wise but the Knight helps... Put it on the table and see what you feel it lacks. The termies are prolly prime chopping and changing along with that landraider. Crusader for a bigger squad for combat remember your reroll to assault once per game. Swapping tiggy for sicarius would also be interesting. Your scouts are kinda spendy and in my opinion work best cheap out of reserves to grab lightly held objectives. Storms are awesome for this!

 

There is some food for thought.

[deadwing34]

Just curious what would a good TAC 2000 point list look like without consideration of my models, still just using the SM codex and the Imperial Knight?

[Guest]

Just curious what would a good TAC 2000 point list look like without consideration of my models, still just using the SM codex and the Imperial Knight?

As for more general TAC lists, it really depends on your play style. My style focuses on defense, then AT, then melee, often with AP, scoring units, and objectives being after thoughts. I tend to favor units designed to fill multiple roles (AKA toolbox units), rather than units only able to preform a single role, even if they are amazing in that single role.

 

So, in example, I was running my DA scouts like this:

 

Scouts (5, Cloaks, Flakk Missile Launcher, Bolters, Sarge with combi-melta) 105pts (Codex SM pays only 100pts for the same thing+chapter tactics)

 

Unit is certainly overpriced, but it typically gets it's points back. If opponent has backfield vehicles, unit can outflank to take them out with bolters, krak grenades and the combi-melta. Unit has objective secured as troops and has decent ability hold ground if opponent lacks anti-cover or dedicated melee units. I often combined this with a Darkshroud to improve their existing cover, and could even combine with banner of devastation to get further anti-infantry shooting from them.

 

With the SM codex, the unit is getting re-worked. When FW is allowed, my models are Minotaurs (they are painted as such). In games that ban FW, I alter the unit as follows, depending on chapter tactics, in example:

 

Black Templars lean away from the shooting phase with scouts, as the Crusader rule makes their run move very appealing for covering ground. For them, I'd drop the missile launcher and the combi-flamer to add a vet sergeant and a power lance or maul or sword. The power axe and fist are not viable in small squads of scouts, as they get cut down before they can swing unwieldy weapons. If a 10-man squad, the fist or axe can be viable. Cloaks may or may not be dropped.

 

Imperial Fists lean towards bolter weapons, so scouts likely drop the missile for a heavy bolter and may even drop the combi-weapon altogether, using there scouts as supplemental bolter marines instead.

 

Salamanders get that nifty master crafted weapon on characters, so the plasma pistol starts looking pretty appealing instead of the combi-melta (unless vulkan). The ability to re-roll flamer saves is also very appealing to camo scouts, as it makes them more defensively impressive in cover.

 

Iron hands don't have a direct ability, but the likely inclusion of techmarines or masters of the forge bolsters your deployment zone terrain, making long range sniper scouts more appealing.

 

White scars add hit and run to scouts, which encourages scout melee (or just very close range) units.

 

Ultra marines have Telion, who certainly leans the unit into camo cloaks and heavy weapons (like sniper rifles). Very notable that Telion adds stealth to the unit which stacks with their cloaks.

 

Raven guard are probably the worst army for scouts, giving there scout rule for free to other units in the army. The turn 1 stealth is nifty, but half the time night fight makes it a lacking ability.