Guest Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Tinkering with the idea of fielding multiple SM Hunters in a portable terrain role. AV12 front and side isn't lacking and they do block LOS for marines pretty well. They are 70pts each. In the off chance that opponent is flyer heavy, they would really make a difference. Otherwise, they are just portable walls. Rest of the army is Minotaurs(think BT with psykers) and Grey Knights with a focus on mid-short range combat. My heavy slots are mostly empty on the SM end, so there isn't a loss there. I've never fielded these Hunters and don't own the models. Stalker doesn't fill a role I need, as lacking-ap AA weapons are easy enough to acquire. These hunters any good? Furthermore, would investing in Storm bolters or hunterkiller missiles add anything here, or should I stick with the portable wall role when facing armies that lack flyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Hunter is a fair bit worse than the Stalker because it only gets one shot- basically, any time you aren't shooting a sky target, the Hunter is completely worthless, whereas the Stalker is at least getting a whole bunch of shots. Given that Fortifications (and Rhinos) exist, I think think throwing 150-200pts into buying "terrain" units is a great deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Well... Here's the thing. In a game where the enemy doesn't have aircraft, they wont WANT to fire at those AV 12 hulls immediately. AV 12 is actually very resistant to damage and it forces much heavier calibre weaponry to be used up on it. the upshot of that is that the vehicle may WELL function admirably as cover as well as a tank shocking threats if the enemy chooses not to stop them. But lets assume the enemy HAS aircraft. Now the Hunter or Stalker is officially important. The thing about the Skyspear is that it essentially never misses and can accumulate its misses, eventually hitting REAR armor at AP 2. The threat of that alone will drive a flyer off the table even when you've missed! The Stalker is the more conventional weapon, because its basically one half of a Hydra with a better Ballistic Skill and better side armor. When you really think about what I just said, at 75 points (Hydra is 70 by comparison) you start edging towards the Hunter more. Is it a SLIGHT gamble given that the enemy may not have flyers? Sure. But lets face it. Flyers are a major thing, FMC's definitely are and you have GOT to have answers to them. These are so much cheaper, and also slower for the enemy to take out than flyers, that it's perplexing to me how they arent' more common in Space Marine forces. But yet... They aren't. Storm Talons and Raven are just too sexy apparently. I actually blog'd about this just a day or two ago (well not just this specifically but it was part of my musings on Space Marines). As mobile cover, they gain an additional value when and if their shooting proves unnecessary for a round. They can move flat out to cut off an enemy charge. Also you can add a Hunter Killer missile to the chassis to add some threat there for First Blood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Stalker isn't half a Hydra. They both have 4 shots per hull. But the Stalker's come from a single gun, rather than two, so it can move 6" and still fire at full effect. The Stalker is as good or better than the Hydra in almost every measurable way, for just 5 Points more. And it still doesn't average even one full HP per Turn against a Jinking Night Scythe, and is garbage against ground targets. A pair of Storm Talons are 25 Points more than three Stalkers, almost as good at anti-air (even without considering that they're more likely to be able to hit weaker facings), far better against ground targets, far more mobile, and far more resilient to a lot of firepower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I've done hydras in the past. Even with denial of jink in prior versions, I found S7 ap4 to be lacking against flyers. I was unlikely to wound flying MCs (3+ armor on most) and unlikely to damage most flyers beyond a single glance or a non-exploding pen. Hydras also have weak side armor, which leaves them quite vulnerable to S5+ barrage weapons (like thunderfire cannons). The SM stalker is an alternate hydra. Being able to spit fire, able to move 6" and fire all weapons without snap, and the increased side armor are all commendable improvements. That said, they don't solve any of the AA issues I'm having. The SM hunter is the one in question. Yeah, it's only 1 shot for 70pts, but being ap2 with armorbane and that rule where misses get another chance to hit, really do add to the value. I've done quad Icarus vengeance batteries, which have a similar wounding and pen value. Those work, but the limitation on shooting the nearest target really hurts. The FSR solves that for the most part, but costs a bundle and forces a defensive deployment in a single location. I'm trying to make the army more offensive, so portable walls have more value than stationary ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 As mobile cover, they gain an additional value when and if their shooting proves unnecessary for a round. They can move flat out to cut off an enemy charge. Also you can add a Hunter Killer missile to the chassis to add some threat there for First Blood. Flat out or Pop smoke. Smoke is awesome on a model where shooting is unnecessary. I can also tank shock or ram, neither of which are terribly lacking on AV12. I do have dozerblade access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 The Stalker isn't half a Hydra. They both have 4 shots per hull. But the Stalker's come from a single gun, rather than two, so it can move 6" and still fire at full effect. The Stalker is as good or better than the Hydra in almost every measurable way, for just 5 Points more. And it still doesn't average even one full HP per Turn against a Jinking Night Scythe, and is garbage against ground targets. A pair of Storm Talons are 25 Points more than three Stalkers, almost as good at anti-air (even without considering that they're more likely to be able to hit weaker facings), far better against ground targets, far more mobile, and far more resilient to a lot of firepower. Then don't take them? Paxmiles is thinking of them as dual purpose and I think the majority of my comment is in support of his idea that the platform can definitely have some use that way. I think you're understating things a bit on one point though. ALMOST everyone takes the missils so its really about 125 pr Storm Talon. Sure, you dont HAVE to but... My bet is most will. And so this really is a biger points differential than you're suggesting most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Then don't take them? Paxmiles is thinking of them as dual purpose and I think the majority of my comment is in support of his idea that the platform can definitely have some use that way. I think you're understating things a bit on one point though. ALMOST everyone takes the missils so its really about 125 pr Storm Talon. Sure, you dont HAVE to but... My bet is most will. And so this really is a biger points differential than you're suggesting most of the time. West is addressing AP's comment on Stalkers. My topic is regarding Hunters. Not a fan of storm talons. AV11 which suffer the same issues as the hydras or stalkers in denying FMC armor saves. Cyclones or Las are options, but if taking those, that Nephlim Jetfighter starts looking reasonably priced... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Then don't take them? Paxmiles is thinking of them as dual purpose and I think the majority of my comment is in support of his idea that the platform can definitely have some use that way. I think you're understating things a bit on one point though. ALMOST everyone takes the missils so its really about 125 pr Storm Talon. Sure, you dont HAVE to but... My bet is most will. And so this really is a biger points differential than you're suggesting most of the time. I included the SkyHammers. 225 for three Stalkers, 250 for two Storm Talons with SkyHammers. My main point got kind of buried in there, tho, which was addressing your remark calling the Stalker half a Hydra, and I can't see any regard in which that's accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 For me I have come to prefer the hunter for the chance of a one hit kill on Flyers. The Stalker just isn't scary enough as a single and there are allot of other heavy support I want. Besides I've found that quite often my opponent will shake the anti air tank at the exact time I need to be able to shoot it eliminating the whole reason for sky fire in the first place! At least the missile swings back around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 For me I have come to prefer the hunter for the chance of a one hit kill on Flyers. The Stalker just isn't scary enough as a single and there are allot of other heavy support I want. ... That is pretty much my reasoning as well. I'd rather have a fairly good shot at rolling on the damage chart for a one-shot kill (be it either the '7' to destroy it or from a lucky follow-up roll on immobilized) that has a built in second chance at rear armor than need multiple hits and single-die armor penetration rolls to glance a flyer down. Against FMC's though I like the stalker more; I suppose it comes down to personal preference and what you're having a harder time against. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Against FMC's though I like the stalker more; I suppose it comes down to personal preference and what you're having a harder time against. How is the stalker better than the hunter against FMCs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 More shots, a 3+ armor save isn't that much better than a 4+ jink... I see it but like he said totally preference on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 So, any value to be found in upgrading the Hunter to have a storm bolter or HK missile? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Don't think so... Seem to remeber sky fire is by weapon now not model... Actually a single shot at the ground might not be too bad now that I consider it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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