Guest Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Working on 40k chaos tzeentch daemon army. Wondering if practical to make the bases work for WHFB too. Does this army work in WHFB? Is building the army to be both 40k and WHFB a practical route? Other, related thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJTW Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 There are movement trays you can buy to make this work. http://www.base-x-of-war.com/html/sci-fi_movement_trays.html Here is an example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Honestly, assuming you are playing friendly games with people who don't make a fuss about it, you can just created a movement tray designed for 25mm squares and the rounds fit in perfectly for your units. This leaves only the large stuff to worry about base swaps or clip on bits to worry about.I have used magnets to allow base swap outs and it works decently. I think the main thing you need to figure out is how good you want it to look. If you want it to be top notch, it's not the best plan. If you want a workable swap that allows you to play both games, have at. Also Tzeentch is the worst god in Fantasy... so there is that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Thanks. Also Tzeentch is the worst god in Fantasy... so there is that. By this, you mean unplayable, or just worst of the four? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I would not say "Unplayable"... but they have some severe in game disadvantages when fielded on their own. You can do much better with them in mixed lists. Actually, they might do better playing with End Times magic rules now that I think about it... but who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No one plays with end times magic, so it's hard to tell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 That's more than a little misleading. Critical mass for spell casting is really the "problem" with mono Tzeentch, but even that can be curtailed through intelligent choices. Horrors are fine as far as demon core goes and the Lore of Tzeentch is good enough to warrant their inclusion. Heralds are alright, but again the whole critical mass for spells thing should be taken into consideration. I'd recommend a BSB Herald and then filling hero choices with Exalted Flamers if you feel the need. As for the other choices, minimum Flamer units are great for escorting Exalted Flamers who otherwise cannot march and shoot, Screamers are just a downright good unit as is the chariot, and marked Furies/Soul Grinders lose nothing compared to their pantheonic brothers. The Lord of Change is a bit off an odd duck, but a perfectly serviceable greater demon. Just realize that this isn't a piece to send screaming into combats as a) he'll be relying a lot on spells to deal damage and a lot of those cannot be cast into/out of combat and b) he's not a throwaway piece like he might be in 40k. Fantasy is (currently) a very different game to 40k and Lords mean a LOT more there than they do in the future. Mixed demons is always going to be a more powerful all-around build because it won't be shoehorned into an RPS build like monolists are, but don't mistake Tzeentch for a pushover. He requires a lot more finesse than his brothers, but he's no less powerful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No one plays with end times magic, so it's hard to tell! I did say "who knows"... sheesh man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Kremmet is certainly right that you can mitigate the downsides, but since over all Tzeentch's strength is in magic and you have to limit magic due to limited power dice, the list has to be tailored around this restriction (or suffer badly from too many points in un-castable magic). Also, the magic that you have has a bit of a downside built into it... your opponent can gain regen each time they are hit with a spell... which makes it increasingly hard to do wounds to the opponents units... and since Warpflame is for some odd reason not a flaming attack... it does not kill the regen. Really, the over all effect of this in a single game will probably only alter a few wounds, but when you are already fighting up hill it just makes it worse. I did forget about the band-aid units they added though. The Chariots and Exalted Flamers give some much needed options to the mono list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJTW Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 The moral of the story is play what you want. If you don't like it, tweak it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Well the chariots always existed, but yes the Exalted is a bandage. The thing about Warpflame is that you're mainly taking Lore of Tzeentch for two spells: Treason and Gateway. Sure whatever you nick with Red or Pink Fire is probably gonna get Regen, but Gateway is more of an eraser than a gradual affair. Plus your herald should probably be running metal anyway to get the shot at Final Trans and Searing Doom is always good which both happen to be on fire to solve the dumb that is Warpflame. The limited dice is a hindrance, but it doesn't cripple Tzeentch. The worst part about it is that it likely means your Horrrors are going to be playing as points denial (and maybe six dicing if they're the ones who get Gateway) while the rest of your army darts around. That's what I actually don't like about Tzeentch demons: it's not that they're not good, but that they're not good in close combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 it's not that they're not good, but that they're not good in close combat. And that sums up the main issue... your bulk Deamons are casters not fighters, but there is a limit on returns in magic built into the base game. If you could beef up your magic dice, or get something in core that was more fighty, you'd be golden... but mono-Tzeentch pretty much strips those options off the table. What you can do, is model up a conversion for another troop type, say plaguebearers, make them all Tzeentchy and call them something else... rules wise it isn't quite right, but it can plug a serious list gap. I actually have "Plague Hounds" in my Nurgle list, and my brother created Displacer Beasts for his Tzeentch list. I did this mostly cause I had old skinny Fleshhounds laying around, but B did it to help plug the gap (and dicplacers sorta fit Tzeentch). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Great call on the displacer beasts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 In a 2500 pt list how would play and outfit a lord of change correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClassicFlava Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 A good fighty option for tzeentxh daemons is to take demigryph knight mounts and put some different riders on them and take them as bloodcrushers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Yeah, I agree with you there. I've always thought theme was in the intention and not in the unit type (or at least that purely unit type themes were less impressive). Outfitting a Lord of Change is a little weird because of how demons get gifts, but this is how I'd do it: Lord of Change:-lvl 4-Lesser Gift -Greater Gift In general I'd swap the lesser gift out for the Wand of Whimsy as the effect is incredibly powerful if your dice are hot, but the best part of gifts is that you get to choose what magic weapon you want after knowing what your opponent has. For the greater gift you're mostly looking for the 2+ AS, but you have no control over it so whatever Tzeentch wants is what you get! For lore I'd personally go Tzeentch as, if you have at least two Horror units, it guarantees Infernal Gateway, but Metal is also very viable for a monster that is hoping to not be in too many combats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I like the LoC with an exalted and a lesser. If I roll anything other than a 1 on the exalted gift then I go for eternal blade as it puts him on par with the other greaters for when you need to get into combat. If you DO roll a 1, then you get your free extra dispel dice for every dispel that you attempt. Mix that up with the wand of whimsy from the lesser gift and you get him up to maxed strength and attacks quickly. Also, it gives you a huge boost in your opponent's magic phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 So, as long as I'm here, what are the base sizes for WHFB daemons (using a lot of old models...)? Lord of change base size? Horror base size? Herald? Herald on Disc? Screamer? Prince? Flamers? Soul Grinder? Others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudra34 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 So, as long as I'm here, what are the base sizes for WHFB daemons (using a lot of old models...)? Lord of change base size? -50x50 Horror base size? -25x25 Herald? -25x25 Herald on Disc? -50x50 Screamer? -40x40 Prince? -50x50 Flamers? 25x25 Soul Grinder? 100x150 Others? Chariot is 50x100 Exhalted flamer is 40x40 Furies are 25x25 I think that covers tzeentch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Lord of change base size? -50x50 Horror base size? -25x25 Herald? -25x25 Herald on Disc? -50x50 Screamer? -40x40 Prince? -50x50 Flamers? 25x25 Soul Grinder? 100x150 Chariot is 50x100 Exhalted flamer is 40x40 Furies are 25x25 I think that covers tzeentch. Thanks. Looks like a 40k prince could be built on that 50mmx50mm base, then inset on the 60mm round without much issue. Lord of change too. I should have some of those 50mm squares laying around somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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