Soft imperial knight armies?

[pretre]

Even if your arc assertion is correct, your 'Knight players don't...' is obviously not since VonVilkee is championing your interpretation.

[VonVilkee]

Homie don't play that!

 

Sorry that totally popped into my head, it is the change to terrain rules all over again really. Walkers used to be able to pivot on the spot then fire, even after moving, so no one bats an eye at the interpretation. Which I agree is totally weaker than I originally thought...

[galahad911]

So... you're saying a knight can't move the arm the gun is attached to? O.o

[generalripphook]

What he is saying is that the knights weapons have the same arcs as a dreadnaught the same size. 

[VonVilkee]

So... you're saying a knight can't move the arm the gun is attached to? O.o

They follow the rules for walkers plus a little bit for the super heaviness. One of the direct stipulations is that you are to assume that walkers have a 45 degree swivel horizontally. No caveats for actual mounting. Pretre quoted the rule book and we had a good back and forth over interpretation. I see the period and play them as effectively hull mounted, pretre reads it like a different weapon and you get the play the mall does or doesn't have... Those guns are big and catch on themselves pretty bad so who knows!

 

:)

[Psilence]

You guys just need to throw some tanks or dead carnifexs at each other.

 

????

[InfestedKerrigan]

So it's not 45* from the position I point my barrel when I'm shooting?

[InfestedKerrigan]

Or is...debatable at best?

[Guest]

So it's not 45* from the position I point my barrel when I'm shooting?

Normal vehicles use the fire arcs listed for the weapon type OR the actual rotations available for the weapon. Walkers (which includes super heavy walkers) have a 45 degree arc regardless of how the model can swivel. The Arc is determined via the facing of the walker, with the walker weapons having 45" degree arc centered on the "front" facing of the weapon. 

 

This differs from prior editions, where walkers were allowed free pivoting in the shooting phase. The fire arcs themselves are otherwise the same as last edition.

 

@pretre: I agree, it does seem like walkers have a shorthand version of the vehicle rules, but it doesn't say this, it actually says to use only the 45 degree arc and doesn't given any options for using the full swiveling range of the walker.

 

On a side note, this also applies to Mechanicum Dragoons with phosphor blasters or radium carbines - they only have a 45 degree arc for shooting via the front facing of the vehicle.

[pretre]

My opinion; the 45 is only for weapons that don't pivot to give you the benefit of the doubt. If a weapon can pivot, you use that. (Ie the main vehicle rules)

 

VonVilkee: hard 45 degree (22.5 in each direction) arc of fire from the barrel of the weapon. It should not be moved during the game.

(I.e strict interpretation of the first sentence of the walker rules)

 

Apologies if that misrepresents.

[InfestedKerrigan]

The way I read it is you have 45 from the barrel.  My barrel swivels.  It acts similar to a hull mounted weapon, but is not a hull mounted weapon.  

[pretre]

The way I read it is you have 45 from the barrel. My barrel swivels. It acts similar to a hull mounted weapon, but is not a hull mounted weapon.

I agree!

[Guest]

The way I read it is you have 45 from the barrel.  My barrel swivels.  It acts similar to a hull mounted weapon, but is not a hull mounted weapon.  

Okay, so the distinction is that you have the 45 degrees, while the hull mounted weapon has 45 degress OR the actual rotations of the model. Mind you, this is pure RAW and has very little basis regarding what is acceptable in actual play.

 

For example, My land raiders/crusaders/redeemers have an hull mounted weapon. The weapon itself can swivel 360 degrees and because GW says that normal vehicles use the actual movements of the model, I have a 360 degree fire arc on my hull mounted TL heavy bolter/assault cannon - mind you, most of this extra arc of fire is impaired via the LR's hull, so it really only has merit against flyers and other very tall targets.

 

Now my mortis dreadnought, on the other hand, has two TL lascannons which can swivel vertically ~270 degrees (it would be 360, but they colide with the ground/table) and my torso can swivel 360 degress. Despite this, I have only a 45 degree fire arc because walkers specifically have that "shorthand" entry in the BRB which does not give any exception to how the model can actually move and has a flat fire arc based on the weapon mounting and walker postition. Mind you, the 45 degree arc still starts from the barrel, it just has to face the direction the walker faces.

 

As for RAI, I really don't think GW intends it to work like this and a house rule would be entirely reasonable. That said, RAW is pretty clear.

[Guest]

My opinion; the 45 is only for weapons that don't pivot to give you the benefit of the doubt. If a weapon can pivot, you use that. (Ie the main vehicle rules)

 

VonVilkee: hard 45 degree (22.5 in each direction) arc of fire from the barrel of the weapon. It should not be moved during the game.

(I.e strict interpretation of the first sentence of the walker rules)

I actually think you had it right, and I missed this post. I think we're mostly saying the same thing, but it was visuallising in my head differently.

 

Your saying that the guns are fixed forward all game on walkers, but they are considered having a 45 degree arc of fire based on the position of the gun barrel (which doesn't move at all).

 

I was originally thinking you meant that you'd swivel the guns 45 degrees and then have another 45 degrees based on the barrel's new position (which is about a 90 degree arc).

[pretre]

I actually think you had it right, and I missed this post. I think we're mostly saying the same thing, but it was visuallising in my head differently.

 

Your saying that the guns are fixed forward all game on walkers, but they are considered having a 45 degree arc of fire based on the position of the gun barrel (which doesn't move at all).

 

I was originally thinking you meant that you'd swivel the guns 45 degrees and then have another 45 degrees based on the barrel's new position (which is about a 90 degree arc).

Oh hell no.

 

That'd be crazy.

 

For your second sentence though, I'm saying "IF the guns are fixed forward on a walker, they are considered to have a 45 degree arc based on the position of the gun barrel. If they are not fixed, they have their actual arc of fire."

[scottshoemaker]

Walker arms are like turrets.

[VonVilkee]

Walker arms are like turrets.

Not by the rules, they had a universal special rule called agile that let the whole model "turret" but this has been removed and replaced with the previous quoted restrictive firing. Trust me I love dreadnoughts used to run five consistently until they got hit with this firing style :(

[pretre]

He said arms, not bodies. :)

[InfestedKerrigan]

Walker arms are like turrets.

 

Does that mean they spontaneously shoot off their load when nervous or stressed?

[pretre]

 

 

 

Does that mean they spontaneously shoot off their load when nervous or stressed?

 

That's a LIE!

[generalripphook]

 

 

 

Does that mean they spontaneously shoot off their load when nervous or stressed?

 

 

1 in 3 dreadnaughts suffer from this

[fluger]

1 in 3 suffer from this 

 

[Guest]

I'm saying "IF the guns are fixed forward on a walker, they are considered to have a 45 degree arc based on the position of the gun barrel. If they are not fixed, they have their actual arc of fire."

So your imperial knights would have some 270-ish degree arc of fire for each arm weapon? Providing they weren't glued forward, of course.

[pretre]

So your imperial knights would have some 270-ish degree arc of fire for each arm weapon? Providing they weren't glued forward, of course.

If 270-ish is how far the arm can swing... then yes.

[generalripphook]

Well are we speaking of rotation vertically or horizontally?