indytims Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Reading up on my shiny new Craftworlds Codex. It didn't take me long to find a few threads on here and on Dakka with people spilling forth the hate for certain facets of the codex. While I confess that I am guilty of having a few chuckles at the expense of mankind in the 40K universe, when it comes to playing - I don't want to make my opponent hate playing me, so with that in mind, I wanted to ask a few opinions... In the following examples, do -you- think they are 'cheesy', annoying, etc? 1) Wraighknight with NO ranged-D weapons 2) Wraithguard with NO ranged-D weapons 3) 1 heavy weapon for every 3 jetbikes 4) Wave Serpents 5) Dire Avenger spam 6) War-Walker unit with dual-scatter lasers on each walker 7) D-Cannon Support Battery Thank you for your input! :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I personally would be fine with any of those. I suspect that the first one and the last two would get some flack from some quarters, but that's just a guess based on what I've seen people yelling about on the internets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Reading up on my shiny new Craftworlds Codex. It didn't take me long to find a few threads on here and on Dakka with people spilling forth the hate for certain facets of the codex. While I confess that I am guilty of having a few chuckles at the expense of mankind in the 40K universe, when it comes to playing - I don't want to make my opponent hate playing me, so with that in mind, I wanted to ask a few opinions... In the following examples, do -you- think they are 'cheesy', annoying, etc? 1) Wraighknight with NO ranged-D weapons 2) Wraithguard with NO ranged-D weapons 3) 1 heavy weapon for every 3 jetbikes 4) Wave Serpents 5) Dire Avenger spam 6) War-Walker unit with dual-scatter lasers on each walker 7) D-Cannon Support Battery Thank you for your input! :) It's the full list, not any one element of the list. The opponent matters a bunch too, as a player that warns and suggests moves to their opponent can often soften their list's cheesy nature without actually changing any tactics or list elements. Reminding them of your weapon ranges, fire lanes, or assault potential while the opponent is moving their models can do wonders towards cheese removal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Main issue with "cheese" is when you face an army where you just don't understand how you could have won, because the opponent's unit or combo was just too "cheesy." If you play 40k like chess (silent and secretive in tactics/strategy), unit combos or overpowered units are more effective, but in blindsiding your opponent, you will hear cries of cheese. That's the main issue. Some units are broken, no question, but you soften them by making suggestions or explaining the units when the opponent actually has the potential to deal with them (like during deployment or in their movement phase). Most lists can cope with the broken units provided that they have a viable strategy from the start, rather than only learning the enemy is broken when it's really too late in the battle to rectify the situation with anything other than sheer luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Reading up on my shiny new Craftworlds Codex. It didn't take me long to find a few threads on here and on Dakka with people spilling forth the hate for certain facets of the codex. While I confess that I am guilty of having a few chuckles at the expense of mankind in the 40K universe, when it comes to playing - I don't want to make my opponent hate playing me, so with that in mind, I wanted to ask a few opinions... In the following examples, do -you- think they are 'cheesy', annoying, etc? 1) Wraighknight with NO ranged-D weapons 2) Wraithguard with NO ranged-D weapons 3) 1 heavy weapon for every 3 jetbikes 4) Wave Serpents 5) Dire Avenger spam 6) War-Walker unit with dual-scatter lasers on each walker 7) D-Cannon Support Battery Thank you for your input! :) Cheese is a really hard thing to say in a vacuum. Ironically a meltagun can do more damage (2-4 hull points) than the nerfed Wraithguard (1-3) So is the Meltagun cheese? Just saying. when it comes to vehicles or big things, what the Wraithguard REALLY got was an 8" melta effect that cant hit flyers, that's just a bit more accurate. Against Monsters its more scary of course and that is probably where one could call cheese if one didn't again digest the 8" range in their thinking. It comes with a fairly short chain and to get it where you'd want it would cost you a Wave Serpent, and the enemy would have to NOT have intervening friendlies. but sure it could happen and in thsoe instances, they cook you. Cant win em all. D-Cannons which aren't nerfed are a measley 24" range and yeah that REALLY does matter. Its good area denial but no Knight will walk into that and most Knights have the range not to be close. If you get close, yeah, it can do some damage but its barrage which means one miss could mean all of them miss. I think objectively the one thing on that list that even rises to the level of concern is the plethora of STR 6 Eldar can output on their Jetbikes. Even that, while annoying, isn't free and melee is the answer to them. They are truly excellent, there's no BS'ing about that. The range is awesome. It replaced what was wrong with the Wave Serpents in some ways. Wat has changed is that the 3-4 Bike squads that used to lurk in reserve and do nothing but gank objectives late game are now on the table for you to force morale checks on and to shoot them earlier in the game. Some might see it as a positive. There isn't much you can do to an enemy you cant see. One would argue that the Shard could make them Fearless and you'd be right, but then, thats not cheap either. Not sure i think it's cheese when Eldar are forced to face things that are equally or more ridiculous. Cant really ban Eldar toys unless you ban the toys they are meant to counter. UNless your philosophy is that Eldar should simply be allowed no counter to the IMperial Knights and Stompas with Mekboyz of the world. But that would be absurdly unfair to suggest. Lances sure as hell aren't going to be enough. Just my take on the matter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 @LH: Is he talking about ITC cheese, or just casual games without ITC? I wasn't thinking he was talking about nerfed D weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 @LH: Is he talking about ITC cheese, or just casual games without ITC? I wasn't thinking he was talking about nerfed D weapons. Either, really. I've seen the nerfed D-list, and I'd even be ok with that myself. I'd be happy to use it in friendly games, if it meant my opponent having less reason to be frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Either, really. I've seen the nerfed D-list, and I'd even be ok with that myself. I'd be happy to use it in friendly games, if it meant my opponent having less reason to be frustrated. Maybe you could give an example of a list that got your opponent frustrated. An example of their list would be helpful too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Maybe you could give an example of a list that got your opponent frustrated. An example of their list would be helpful too. I'm actually just getting back into 40K after about a 3 year hiatus. So totally new to the Craftworld codex. I've just been doing some reading and, as usual with every edition since 2nd, there's grumbling about certain codexes/models/etc. I was just trying to be... proactive, I guess, in my army-building. I didn't want to buy a Wraithknight with excitement, only to find out that people will try to put me in a headlock once I set it on the table. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Im in kinda the same boat as you Indy,though im completely new to Eldar and mainly play assault based armies. Yeah im a bit concerned about putting together a first list that would be considered "cheesy",but I don't like playing spam armies so I wont be doing the bike spam thing.I do plan to use the minimum squads(probably 3) for my Objsec grabbers. I wouldn't be afraid of plopping down your one WK,,I just ordered mine yesterday and will certainly include it in my armies.With the new IK dex,im sure 3-5 knignt lists will be pretty common so having one WK or perhaps maybe two shouldn't be frowned upon. Overall,now that ive had a chance to study the new book,and this being my first foray into the Elf/Eldar Warhammer worlds,I would say that yes its a strong book but NOT the oped gak it was thought to be in the release hype...Its still a Toughness three army at the end of the day,a expensive one points wise at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I would not mind playing against an eldar list (although I prefer ITC Guidelines so I can practice, but whatevs) and considering you'll be playing me Friday, I'm the most important! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Overall,now that ive had a chance to study the new book,and this being my first foray into the Elf/Eldar Warhammer worlds,I would say that yes its a strong book but NOT the oped gak it was thought to be in the release hype...Its still a Toughness three army at the end of the day,a expensive one points wise at that. We have much different opinions of what is expensive points wise. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I don't have a problem with any of that. And honestly, I think you could up it a bit and still not get major push back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 It really depends on where and who you play too. Playing OFCC Team event? Tone it down. Playing an ITC tournament? Fine. Playing a garage game? Depends on your opponent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I'm actually just getting back into 40K after about a 3 year hiatus. So totally new to the Craftworld codex. I've just been doing some reading and, as usual with every edition since 2nd, there's grumbling about certain codexes/models/etc. I was just trying to be... proactive, I guess, in my army-building. I didn't want to buy a Wraithknight with excitement, only to find out that people will try to put me in a headlock once I set it on the table. :) You really need to just play. The internet tends to have stronger reactions to units than the players actually do. The other bit is that some of the people on the internet have a really bad group of local players (like the players are just bad people). 40k's enjoyment is very much related to the players, rather than the rules or army lists. In my case, I debate more online than I do in person. I think the ideal is to resolve rules disputes while NOT playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 In my case, I debate more online than I do in person. I think the ideal is to resolve rules disputes while NOT playing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 I would not mind playing against an eldar list (although I prefer ITC Guidelines so I can practice, but whatevs) and considering you'll be playing me Friday, I'm the most important! LOL! Can you link me to the ITC Guidelines? I know I could google it, but I just want to make sure I get the right 'vesion' or 'edition' or whatever you are using yourself. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 ...In my case, I debate more online than I do in person. I think the ideal is to resolve rules disputes while NOT playing. You know, I think that is actually in the rulebook. Roll the d6 when you can't agree - argue later! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByVzaY23LOX-SU81WDd2RUx6TmUxdHJnWEhHcldJd3FlbGNR/view 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Thanks Fluger/Pretre. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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