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Tzeentch Daemons


Edosaurus Rex

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So my Tzeentch Daemon army has been shelved since 6th edition, but I'm finally dusting it off and ready to get some games in with it.

 

My question is this: is summoning any good? I've drafted up a list or two and it's pretty easy to make an army that generates a LOT of warp charge points every turn but I'm not sure if it would be better to go for summoning more Daemons every turn or just simply shooting with the lore of Tzeentch. Now that psykers can shoot at multiple targets (again, i haven't played this army in the current edition) it seems like the lore of Tzeentch would be the way to go because all of the spells are pretty darn good (especially when coupled with Prescience and the Locus of +1 Strength for psychic shooting attacks). But it would also be pretty easy to summon 2-3 new units of Daemons every turn and try to win just by unit saturation. What do you guys think? Has anyone successfully ran a summoning list?

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I don't think they've won any of the truly major Tournaments, but I know people have had success with Summoning Lists at more moderate levels of competition. They're too unreliable to hold up well over a 6-8 Game event, but should be alright for 3 more often than not. I've used Summoning a bit, but haven't really played a Summoning List. That said, I have read up on them a bit.

 

Bringing in 3 Units per Turn + Cursed Earth seems to be the standard you want to meet. Mostly just lean on basic Summoning and then Sacrifice to bring in more Heralds for extra Warp Charge.

 

Chaos Space Marine Allies can really help, especially Crimson Slaughter. CSM Sorcerers and Daemon Princes have access to re-rolls on their Psychic Tests, and Crimson Slaughter have a Relic that will give a Sorcerer the Daemon Rule, so he doesn't have to worry about Perils on any double. You generally want to be throwing 5-6 WC at Summoning if you've got a re-roll, 7-8 without.

 

Daemonettes are the go-to Unit to bring in, since they can handle almost anything in the Game. Screamers if you need to grab a distant Objective or something. Pretty much every other option is inferior to those, but there are a few cases where Bloodletters are nice, and sometimes you'll want more Horrors for extra WC. The Portalglyph can also be handy for bringing in more Horrors. Just drop it somewhere out of sight, and let them sit back and hide and generate WC.

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So my Tzeentch Daemon army has been shelved since 6th edition, but I'm finally dusting it off and ready to get some games in with it.

 

My question is this: is summoning any good? I've drafted up a list or two and it's pretty easy to make an army that generates a LOT of warp charge points every turn but I'm not sure if it would be better to go for summoning more Daemons every turn or just simply shooting with the lore of Tzeentch. Now that psykers can shoot at multiple targets (again, i haven't played this army in the current edition) it seems like the lore of Tzeentch would be the way to go because all of the spells are pretty darn good (especially when coupled with Prescience and the Locus of +1 Strength for psychic shooting attacks). But it would also be pretty easy to summon 2-3 new units of Daemons every turn and try to win just by unit saturation. What do you guys think? Has anyone successfully ran a summoning list?

The whole codex is too random for any sort of proper appraisal, but tzeentch can work. Mono-tzeentch will face some issues.

As a whole, tzeentch sucks in melee, at range, and defensively, at least when compared to the other daemons. Over reliance on psychic powers can work, but some opponents will be immune or resistant to the majority of your army. Furthermore, the perils table can be lethal and powers are not reliably acquired.

 

That said, I am also working on a Tzeentch daemon list.

 

As for notable strong and weak points of the mono-tzeentch army:

 

Strengths:

-Psyker spamming

-Staff of change (10pt upgrade to add +2 strength to princes and greater daemons, so they really don't need to smash in melee like other MCs against AV12+)

 

Weaknesses:

-Only the primaris power of the tzeentch disipline can harm fliers (beams and blast can't snap) and that is only S5. Misfortune via divination can help, but you really have to spam powers in order to damage AV12 fliers.

-Most of your units will die in assault and most of the army starts of the soft side of comparable cost units.

-Heavy reliance on psykers.

 

Yes, allied armies, or the use of non-tzeentch daemons can fix your weak points. Fortifications can also really help. Lots of ways on this front.

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Deamons just won the BAO. It did have allied chaos space marines but that was really just for the helldrake and extra HQ slot.

 

His list was something like:

 

Fateweaver

Bloodthirster

 

horrors

horrors

 

Deamon prince

 

bastion

 

Be'lakor

cultists

Helldrake

 

An invisible Bloodthirster with a 3+ invul is no joke.

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Hmmm... thanks for the feedback! I realized that I didn't actually post up my list, so here's the general idea that I had:

 

Lord of Change

3 Tzeentch Heralds on disks

 

2 units of 10 Horrors

 

2 units of 5 Flamers

 

2 units of 7 Screamers

 

2 Tzeentch Daemon Princes with wings

 

All of the psykers are level 3, and one of the heralds has an exalted reward (grimoire) and the locus of +1 Strength for psychic shooting. All of the heralds join one unit of screamers and use cursed earth and the grimoire to (hopefully) get a 2+ save every turn. Ideally the heralds would end up with cursed earth, prescience, maybe that divination spell that grants a 4+ invuln, and then a bunch of either summoning or Tzeentch shooting spells. That unit will just fly around casting spells and harassing units with screamer slashing attacks.

 

The other unit of screamers will go for vehicles and maybe harass or tarpit units in cc if necessary.

 

The flamers will either deep strike or run up behind stuff to try and take out units on foot.

 

The Daemon Princes will mostly take Telepathy powers for psychic shriek, invisibility, and that one spell that grants shrouded. They might also take a spell from either Tzeentch or Daemonology. If the shrouded spell goes off the DP can fly around jinking with a 2+ cover save and either summon more daemons or just have fun with psychic shriek.

 

The Lord of Change will pretty much just be a dedicated shooter or summoner. He can also get stuck in combat if necessary (he's still pretty beefy in cc).

 

So pretty much this army list can either go for summons or psychic shooting, I guess I'll have to get some games in with it and see how it plays. I like the idea of summoning but it just seems like it will take all of my warp charge points every turn and new units of lesser daemons aren't going to do too much if they have to survive a round of shooting first.

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Hmmm... thanks for the feedback! I realized that I didn't actually post up my list, so here's the general idea that I had:

 

Lord of Change

3 Tzeentch Heralds on disks

 

2 units of 10 Horrors

 

2 units of 5 Flamers

 

2 units of 7 Screamers

 

2 Tzeentch Daemon Princes with wings

 

All of the psykers are level 3, and one of the heralds has an exalted reward (grimoire) and the locus of +1 Strength for psychic shooting. All of the heralds join one unit of screamers and use cursed earth and the grimoire to (hopefully) get a 2+ save every turn. Ideally the heralds would end up with cursed earth, prescience, maybe that divination spell that grants a 4+ invuln, and then a bunch of either summoning or Tzeentch shooting spells. That unit will just fly around casting spells and harassing units with screamer slashing attacks.

 

The other unit of screamers will go for vehicles and maybe harass or tarpit units in cc if necessary.

 

The flamers will either deep strike or run up behind stuff to try and take out units on foot.

 

The Daemon Princes will mostly take Telepathy powers for psychic shriek, invisibility, and that one spell that grants shrouded. They might also take a spell from either Tzeentch or Daemonology. If the shrouded spell goes off the DP can fly around jinking with a 2+ cover save and either summon more daemons or just have fun with psychic shriek.

 

The Lord of Change will pretty much just be a dedicated shooter or summoner. He can also get stuck in combat if necessary (he's still pretty beefy in cc).

 

So pretty much this army list can either go for summons or psychic shooting, I guess I'll have to get some games in with it and see how it plays. I like the idea of summoning but it just seems like it will take all of my warp charge points every turn and new units of lesser daemons aren't going to do too much if they have to survive a round of shooting first.

Maybe you've got a special formation or something, but the daemon bit that allows extra HQ slots is 2 heralds per HQ slot. So, you've got too many HQs.

 

Beyond that, list is very typical tzeentch. You are going to run into issues with high AV enemies, and with anything more melee able than you are.

 

I'll also note that between all the spells you've mentioned, you'll probably only be able to cast a third of those, even if you get all of them. It's a simple matter of not having enough warp charge points for all the things you want to do. List is entirely too psychic reliant.

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Oh, on a side note, one of the biggest failings of the Tzeentch disipline is that rule that potentially grants improved FNP to the enemy. None of the tzeentch powers are very good at denying FNP and with repeated successful toughness tests can quickly make the enemy more powerful than your army can actually deal with.

 

Tzeentch has lots of issues with plaguebearers and deathguard, amongst others.

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@Pax: It's 4 Heralds per slot, once per Detachment. I just looked it up.

 

@Edo: The issue I can see here is the ITC Ruling that a given Power can only be manifested from a particular Unit (not Psyker, Unit) once per Turn. In particular, that kills the +1S Locus + massed Flickering Fire combo. Should still work as a Summoning List, tho.

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Hmmm... thanks for the feedback! I realized that I didn't actually post up my list, so here's the general idea that I had:

Lord of Change

3 Tzeentch Heralds on disks

2 units of 10 Horrors

2 units of 5 Flamers

2 units of 7 Screamers

2 Tzeentch Daemon Princes with wings

 

When properly equipped this list is well over 2k points.

 

My advice:

 

Take fateweaver instead of the LoC. He is near mandatory in most Daemon lists.

 

Drop the flamers. They aren't good.

 

Your princes should be equipped thusly: MoT, armour, flight, level 3, 2x greater gifts. 345pts. Or 1x greater 1x Exalted for 355pts. Tzeentch Princes are the most expensive unfortunately.

 

Your Tzeralds should be lvl3 with discs and one can carry the grim unless you'd prefer a Prince to hold it. The loci are ok, as has been mentioned FF giving units fnp is BS. I rarely use em unless you have the pts lying around.

 

Horror units should be 11 strong to generate 2 warp charges.

 

If you can squeeze it in, grab a bastion to start your FMCs behind and horrors in to minimize enemy alpha strike.

 

Potential other versions of the list: Ally in CSM for Belakor (guaranteed shrouding and invisibility) and possibly a heldrake. If you want to do a Tzeentch themed list then convert your own badass Tzeentch daemon to count as Belakor.

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