Infinity Sportsmanship

[Peanut]

Just one quick thought on Infinity sportsmanship. Probably my biggest pet-peeve with this game is this (and I love the game): I think it's easy to give in to being a little quick and loose with measurements. If you're moving two of your four inches, it's fine to just move it - but I've seen people fudge their four inches - sometimes intentionally, sometimes out of just not being careful with their measuring, to where their model is just barely able to see one of mine, or just barely avoid an ARO etc...

 

I've seen people measure from the edge of their base, then move their model as if they measured from the center (getting about 4 and a quarter inches of movement rather than four). 

 

I think, with a game that's so dependent on cover, measurement should be extremely precise and care should always be taken.

 

Of course it's just a game and we don't want to take it too seriously, but it's kind of hard for me to ignore it when I see it. The game should move fast, but I think this game demands precision.

 

Just a personal pet-peeve, maybe I'm being uptight. I will say I'm not talking about anyone at Ordo! And I think in most cases the person isn't trying to gain advantage, they're just gaining it from not paying enough attention.

 

Okay uptight whine-fest done.

[DisruptiveConduct]

sounds like you guys need an Ordo branded Infinity tac-template!

[rudra34]

FOr tournaments I agree, for casual play it's obviously less important.  However, we should all try to be in the habit of measuring precisely, especially in a game where and eighth of an inch can make such a difference.

[Don't Panic]

measuring does make a difference but it does in any game really.  its very rare that ive actually seen someone wheel correctly in whfb.  really a mm is within the range of human error so i wouldnt get too worked up about it.  unless there is a common 'theme' to a person measuring incorrectly/advantageously or it is just straight up obvious, then they deserve to be called out for it, but in a friendly manner is all cause most people are oblivious to it.  for example, dont get to the point like this guy i played in star wars armada that was literally remeasuring everything i just measured because he didnt 'trust his opponent cause he had never played me before'.  physically moving your models when remeasuring... ive never straight up quit a game due to lack of enjoyment, and within 5 minutes of starting a game, but that [big bad swear word] will put you on my 'never play again' list(which is only him lol).  just be kind about it is all :) which i know you are peanut, just venting my frustration with a person we both cant stand(and isnt on ordo so nbd) to an extreme of measure-overlording that will kill your enjoyment of the game... 

[Peanut]

Yeah, that's the thing, I've come to the decision that I will never call anyone out on stuff like that, I'd rather not spoil their fun or risk an argument. But when it's a clinch moment, when a person is down to their last order and they misjudged how far they could get with it, some will tend to be a little loose with the measurements. I think, in terms of sportsmanship, taking the time to be really accurate is the best thing to do with this game. It's just like arc of visibility in warhammer - when it comes down to it, you get out the little arrow thing and maybe extend your measuring tape along the arrow to see if you do have line of sight for a charge. I've seen so many people do this when measuring range in Infinity, or LoF, but never with their own movement. When a move is either just barely not enough or just barely enough, (and any time really), you should take the time to measure it and measure it well.

 

Okay this is just a personal pet peeve of mine - I'll let it go, maybe I'm being uptight here. I really don't stress it when I see it happen, I just appreciate it when people take the time and avoid the fudge.

[Peanut]

And yeah, that guy kind of single-handedly made me stop playing Armada. He'll learn... I hope.

 

measuring does make a difference but it does in any game really.  its very rare that ive actually seen someone wheel correctly in whfb.  really a mm is within the range of human error so i wouldnt get too worked up about it.  unless there is a common 'theme' to a person measuring incorrectly/advantageously or it is just straight up obvious, then they deserve to be called out for it, but in a friendly manner is all cause most people are oblivious to it.  for example, dont get to the point like this guy i played in star wars armada that was literally remeasuring everything i just measured because he didnt 'trust his opponent cause he had never played me before'.  physically moving your models when remeasuring... ive never straight up quit a game due to lack of enjoyment, and within 5 minutes of starting a game, but that [big bad swear word] will put you on my 'never play again' list(which is only him lol).  just be kind about it is all :) which i know you are peanut, just venting my frustration with a person we both cant stand(and isnt on ordo so nbd) to an extreme of measure-overlording that will kill your enjoyment of the game... 

[NakedPanda]

we have all seen this in every game we play.

 

It never struck me that people were intentionally cheating, but rather allowing excitement and desire colour their perception.

 

A fine line, that still ends in the same mess, but it is worth noting that these are still good people, despite the bad habits we all share hahaha

[Don't Panic]

i see your pet peeve and ill raise you mine! LOL: one thing i really wish is that we have more terrain to the point where a single sniper/hmg TR bot doesnt lock down 3 quarters of the board.  he really should only lock down half tops.  really easy way to do this is to make the gaps tighter for buildings so a single guy can just sneak through without being snagged.  seems we have the buildings too spaced sometimes where you cant go from cover to cover without being seen by the sniper on top of the 2 foot [big bad swear word]ing tower.  also obviously dont put the tallest crazy high building in deployment zone with barrels for cover on top.  thats just kinda annoying... ive been stuck in a hole before where i just couldnt move because of one long range weapon taking over the entire field, even though i had buildings in between us he was 3-4 stories high so it doesnt matter.   hopefully since all of us are building terrain we just start cluttering the heck out of the field which will be so much fun.. obviously just my opinion there :P  RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE lol

[rudra34]

i see your pet peeve and ill raise you mine! LOL: one thing i really wish is that we have more terrain to the point where a single sniper/hmg TR bot doesnt lock down 3 quarters of the board.  he really should only lock down half tops.  really easy way to do this is to make the gaps tighter for buildings so a single guy can just sneak through without being snagged.  seems we have the buildings too spaced sometimes where you cant go from cover to cover without being seen by the sniper on top of the 2 foot [big bad swear word]ing tower.  also obviously dont put the tallest crazy high building in deployment zone with barrels for cover on top.  thats just kinda annoying... ive been stuck in a hole before where i just couldnt move because of one long range weapon taking over the entire field, even though i had buildings in between us he was 3-4 stories high so it doesnt matter.   hopefully since all of us are building terrain we just start cluttering the heck out of the field which will be so much fun.. obviously just my opinion there :P  RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE lol

 

I'm working on it!   I have 3 pieces ready to play, hopefully 4-5 that I can bring this Sunday. 

[indytims]

I see this often, too. Usually it's by a small amount, and DP is right, that can definitely make a difference. But I can also admit that in the heat of the moment, -I- might have accidentally fudged an extra 1/8th of an inch once in awhile too. I rarely say anything about it, and on the rare occasion someone asks me about my measurement, I am more than happy to let them come measure it themselves.

 

What I -do- speak up on, is if the 'extra distance' is... um... -generous-. If someone is trying to turn 4" into 6", then I'll just politely ask about it. "Is that guy a move-4 guy, or 6?" And everytime I've asked politely, they remeasure, and move their guy back to the proper distance. I've never had an argument about distances, but I can definitely see where it could be tense.

 

And movement is important in a lot of games that use measurin' sticks. And in a game like Infinity, it's -very- important as we all know. So I can understand folks being picky about it, and getting a bit upset when it's abused.

[Peanut]

Yeah totally - there's some sweet spot between too dense and too sparse. Apparently in Europe they have pretty sparse tables and we play more dense over here. A sniper should be able to be a threat in ARO and lock down some stuff, but there are times when he can see the whole board and that's not fair to the opponent.

 

Some things I think help are: Never put a 2 or more story building in a deployment zone. Sometimes there are infiltrating snipers, but in general snipers don't want to be closer to the enemy, so this is a benefit and a detriment. Also, building something high in the middle of the board is great, it really splits the board.

 

i see your pet peeve and ill raise you mine! LOL: one thing i really wish is that we have more terrain to the point where a single sniper/hmg TR bot doesnt lock down 3 quarters of the board.  he really should only lock down half tops.  really easy way to do this is to make the gaps tighter for buildings so a single guy can just sneak through without being snagged.  seems we have the buildings too spaced sometimes where you cant go from cover to cover without being seen by the sniper on top of the 2 foot [big bad swear word]ing tower.  also obviously dont put the tallest crazy high building in deployment zone with barrels for cover on top.  thats just kinda annoying... ive been stuck in a hole before where i just couldnt move because of one long range weapon taking over the entire field, even though i had buildings in between us he was 3-4 stories high so it doesnt matter.   hopefully since all of us are building terrain we just start cluttering the heck out of the field which will be so much fun.. obviously just my opinion there :P  RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE lol

[indytims]

i see your pet peeve and ill raise you mine! LOL: one thing i really wish is that we have more terrain to the point where a single sniper/hmg TR bot doesnt lock down 3 quarters of the board.  he really should only lock down half tops.  really easy way to do this is to make the gaps tighter for buildings so a single guy can just sneak through without being snagged.  seems we have the buildings too spaced sometimes where you cant go from cover to cover without being seen by the sniper on top of the 2 foot [big bad swear word]ing tower.  also obviously dont put the tallest crazy high building in deployment zone with barrels for cover on top.  thats just kinda annoying... ive been stuck in a hole before where i just couldnt move because of one long range weapon taking over the entire field, even though i had buildings in between us he was 3-4 stories high so it doesnt matter.   hopefully since all of us are building terrain we just start cluttering the heck out of the field which will be so much fun.. obviously just my opinion there :P  RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE lol

 

Yeah, I've noticed in this game, the amount of terrain is far more important than most other games I've played.

 

In your Sniper example... not enough terrain makes a sniper far more valuable. Too MUCH terrain, and you make them far less valuable. There should be a nice middle-ground when it comes to the amount used, and finding that sweet-spot is key. :)

 

One thing I've seen while learning: in general, the less terrain on the board, the quicker the game goes! :P

[Don't Panic]

Yeah totally - there's some sweet spot between too dense and too sparse. Apparently in Europe they have pretty sparse tables and we play more dense over here. A sniper should be able to be a threat in ARO and lock down some stuff, but there are times when he can see the whole board and that's not fair to the opponent.

 

Some things I think help are: Never put a 2 or more story building in a deployment zone. Sometimes there are infiltrating snipers, but in general snipers don't want to be closer to the enemy, so this is a benefit and a detriment. Also, building something high in the middle of the board is great, it really splits the board.

yea the anti sentiment is you want there to be open spaces for drop guys and you dont want to have snipers be completely worthless.  so yea its a just right situation but i think isnt that hard to figure out once we get the gist of it.

oh another pet peeve that has nothing to do with people at all lol: i wish CB had models for all of their options.  many options i want just flat out dont have models!  so you have to proxy them with a dude with a different weapon and i just find proxying, in a competitive sense, to be a little annoying when you look at a model thinking it has 1 thing when i reality it has something else and forgetting that totally foils your plans... same in warhammer as well, my first game ever was against a 75% proxy daemon army.  i still think skullcrushers have hover because they were proxies for drones the first time i played lol. 

[Hansel]

Yeah, also it's important to not bend your tape measure around corners. If your base would hit something you have to move around it which will cause extra movement, and bending around corners can easily avoid that. Luckily I have some templates from WM/H (2/4/6 and 2/3/5), so I plan to use those for my movement.

[Hansel]

 

oh another pet peeve that has nothing to do with people at all lol: i wish CB had models for all of their options.  

 

To be honest I'm really glad Infinity is not WYSIWYG. I mean, the guns are so small anyway; I can't pick out an HMG vs. a Combi across the table (admittedly I'm new). I would not want to have to buy (building and painting is the real issue) another model from a unit for every possible option I could use. I'm just like, "this dude's a Combi, this dude's a Sniper, this dude's an HMG," etc. I'll be asking my opponents often "what gun does that guy have?" and expecting them to do the same to me. 

 

When it comes to the fiddliness of having different weapon options for a model (I come from Warmachine, mostly, and that was not an issue in that game), I think Infinity does it best. I (briefly) played 40k and did not like how that handled it at all. 

[MattS]

I've been playing Infinity for a little over three years now and the measurement issue is worse right now I think because of how its measured has changed. Front to front is new for some people and they get confused. There might be some who are doing it on purpose but what I've done is simply asked them if they noticed they did it after a game. Often this is when I've not been their opponent but just watched as an observer and I soft sell it by saying I only noticed in a few of their moves. The player often then realizes they were doing it far more often and realize they need to remember how movement is measured and stick to it.

 

As for terrain its a tough thing to get right and what is right for one meta may not be for another. Sparse terrain helps HMGs and sniper and other long range weapons which are often expensive both in points and SWC. Dense terrain helps shotguns, direct template weapons and hacking which outside of hacking are often cheap and low SWC cost. So in fact by going overly dense you skew the game towards horde lists and making peoples 5-6 point models able to wipe out many times worth their points. A sparse table allows for a ~30 point model to kill a couple times worth their points but there are ways to deal with this (simple skirmisher with a rifle within 16" with surprise shot helps deal with a lot of those long range threats). I'm not trying to say sparse is better than dense, just that that one benefits middling to expensive figures and the other benefits cheap horde armies.

 

Height is fine so long as you have bridges, balconies, other buildings or structures that break up the line of sight going from high to low. If all buildings are one story except for two four story buildings, that can lead to a very unbalanced game. With industrial stacks with catwalks, skyways going from building to building, a covered walkway or such and that sniper can see a lot of table but not a lot of where the armies might be moving through.

 

Those are my thoughts on the issue. Each person and meta discover their own way and it may not work for everyone. Some people don't like playing against or with Rambo lists. The game tries, its not perfect but its quite solid. Its been more consistent than second edition so we can just hope that it continues to grow and strengthen.