Caestus Assault Ram transport capacity...?

[Guest]

Double checking this guy's rules, before I use him for the first time.

 

IA2 2nd ed says Caestus Assault Ram holds 10 models which must be in power armor, artificer armor, or terminator armor, and disregards the bulky rule for the purposes of the model transport capacity.

 

It does not mention jump infantry, so I assume I can't transport them, despite them being in power armor and bulky. Right?

 

Models from other factions may still ride, provided they are of the battle brothers allegiance and in power armor, artificer armor, or terminator armor. Right?

 

If, for some reason, my model had the very bulky rule or extremely bulky rule, he could still be transported, he just wouldn't be able to ignore the rule for model transport capacity as he would for the bulky rule. Right?

 

Those are my questions. Any help would be appreciated.

[WestRider]

Correct on Jump Infantry and Bros. I don't know about the last one, but I can't think of any Models that fit that description, so it probably doesn't matter.

[Guest]

Correct on Jump Infantry and Bros. I don't know about the last one, but I can't think of any Models that fit that description, so it probably doesn't matter.

Off hand, all I could think of was that nurgle throne, which isn't really a contender, but if I wasn't correct on the other two, then it was a question worth asking.

[AbusePuppy]

I'm not so sure about being able to transport Jump Infantry, but I can see the argument for it.

 

Bulky/Very Bulky models, though, definitely. It is relevant because there's some of the FW characters that have variants of it I believe.

[VonVilkee]

I always read it as allowing jump Packers. Really with the speed of the thing what is the harm?

[Guest]

I always read it as allowing jump Packers. Really with the speed of the thing what is the harm?

I might need an exact rules quote, as I do agree with you, I've always read it as allowing jump packs.

 

The part that threw me off was the ban on carapace models, which caused me to second guess it all.

 

Let's see:

 

 

Misericorde:

The ram's two hull booms contain heavily armoured compartments, each fitted with multiple retractable inertia supression clamps which lock transported troops in place and protect them from impact. As a result, a Caestus Assault Ram has a transport capacity of ten models which must either be in power armour, artificer armour or Terminator armour. Its transport capacity is not affected by the Bulky special rule and remains ten models regardless of the transported models' type.

 

[AbusePuppy]

The issue would be that transports, unless specified otherwise, cannot carry units other than the Infantry type (not counting Jump and Jet Pack variants.) As I said, there's an argument to be made there because the Misericorde rule specifies that it has a unique type of transport capacity, but it's also arguable that the rule is only applicable within the context of infantry (one certainly wouldn't allow it to carry a Monstrous Creature that was wearing Terminator or Power Armor, for example.)

[InfestedKerrigan]

As Long as the MC had Termie or Power Armor and was "Normal" or "Bulky" I see no reason why said MC couldn't be on it as it would meet the requisites.

 

 

Is an Assault Marine a model in Power Armor, Termie Armor or Arti Armor? Yes.

Is an Assault Marine a model with Normal or Bulky?  Yes.

 

Just my ha'penny.

[AbusePuppy]

Is an Assault Marine an infantry unit? No. You're not really addressing the crux of the argument there.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Is Jump Infantry no longer Infantry?  *goes digging in BRB*

[InfestedKerrigan]

I might need an exact rules quote, as I do agree with you, I've always read it as allowing jump packs.

 

The part that threw me off was the ban on carapace models, which caused me to second guess it all.

 

Let's see:  

Quote

 

Misericorde:

The ram's two hull booms contain heavily armoured compartments, each fitted with multiple retractable inertia supression clamps which lock transported troops in place and protect them from impact. As a result, a Caestus Assault Ram has a transport capacity of ten models which must either be in power armour, artificer armour or Terminator armour. Its transport capacity is not affected by the Bulky special rule and remains ten models regardless of the transported models' type.

 

 

 

 

 

Pg 80 BRB:

 

Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

So MCs can not embark as they are not Infantry nor are they expressly permitted.  Assault Marines are Infantry, however pg 80 says they explicitly are excluded unless stated otherwise.  

 

As for Carapace Armor, clearly the armor isn't fancy enough to have the right equipment to connect to the computer and life support systems to keep a lowly guardsman or Scout alive.

[Guest]

Is an Assault Marine an infantry unit? No. You're not really addressing the crux of the argument there.

The Crux is that FW's old rules allowed for all sorts of unit types to count as a certain number of infantry models for transport purposes. Looking at the FW rules, it becomes very iffy if they realize that the current GW rules disallow non-infantry from riding most transports.

 

The other bit, which is a bit unclear, is this bold bit here:

 

Misericorde:

The ram's two hull booms contain heavily armoured compartments, each fitted with multiple retractable inertia supression clamps which lock transported troops in place and protect them from impact. As a result, a Caestus Assault Ram has a transport capacity of ten models which must either be in power armour, artificer armour or Terminator armour. Its transport capacity is not affected by the Bulky special rule and remains ten models regardless of the transported models' type.

If it can only hold infantry, what does this bold bit mean?

[InfestedKerrigan]

It means that Bulky Models(Terminators) don't take up 2 slots and can still take UP TO 10 models.

[Guest]

It means that Bulky Models(Terminators) don't take up 2 slots and can still take UP TO 10 models.

That's already addressed here:

Its transport capacity is not affected by the Bulky special rule and remains ten models regardless of the transported models' type.

Bulky is not a model type. It is a special rule which is addressed.

 

Jump infantry is a model type.

[InfestedKerrigan]

A Terminator is an Infantry Model Type that has the Bulky Special Rule.  An Assault Marine is a Jump Infantry Model Type that has the Bulky Special Rule.  A Tactical Marine is an Infantry Model Type that does not have the Bulky Special Rule.  

 

The Ram can hold 10 models regardless of their Model Type conferring Bulky.  The qualifying statement that needs to be addressed concerning Assault Marines with Jump Packs is covered on pg80.  The Ram does not Explicitly State that it may Transport Jump Infantry, please see Storm Raven for an example of a Transport that Allows Jump Infantry to mount it.

[InfestedKerrigan]

After my diggin this morning, I'm of the opinion that the Ram CANNOT transport Jump Infantry, because pg 80 of the BRB says so.  

 

Due to it being a RAM, for RAMMING and Boarding Actions, I don't think from a fluff standpoint it should be able to transport Jump Infantry.

[AbusePuppy]

I honestly wouldn't mind if someone wanted to do so, but I think the rules argument for it is a bit shaky (although Pax's note about the unit type clause does lend it a bit of support.)

[Guest]

The Ram can hold 10 models regardless of their Model Type conferring Bulky.  The qualifying statement that needs to be addressed concerning Assault Marines with Jump Packs is covered on pg80.  The Ram does not Explicitly State that it may Transport Jump Infantry, please see Storm Raven for an example of a Transport that Allows Jump Infantry to mount it.

RAW, I do agree. The Ram does not specifically address model types allowed.

 

That said, FW used to have rules which assigned model counts to all sorts of unit types, allowing even bikes to be transported. Although these notes are gone, many FW units strongly imply that FW doesn't realise these rules are removed.

 

In example, the SM Rapier Battery from the same "IA:2 2nd edition" has the Extremely Bulky rule, despite being artillery and no SM vehicles (FW or otherwise) having the noted ability to transport Artillery.

[Guest]

Due to it being a RAM, for RAMMING and Boarding Actions, I don't think from a fluff standpoint it should be able to transport Jump Infantry.

So, from a fluff standpoint, should a RAM designed for RAMMING have their only doors in or out be mounted on the front of the tank...? Seems designed to get stuck with doors that won't open due to the wreckage.

[Guest]

I sent a question to FW regarding both the RAM and their other vehicles. Hopefully, in a month or two, I'll have an answer.

[WestRider]

So, from a fluff standpoint, should a RAM designed for RAMMING have their only doors in or out be mounted on the front of the tank...? Seems designed to get stuck with doors that won't open due to the wreckage.

That's why it also has a ludicrously powerful melta right next to those doors, just in case.

[generalripphook]

So, from a fluff standpoint, should a RAM designed for RAMMING have their only doors in or out be mounted on the front of the tank...? Seems designed to get stuck with doors that won't open due to the wreckage.

It has a huge melta and supposedly assault charges mounted by the door which blow through the hull.

[dalmer]

Hello there,

 

And from a fluff standpoint... yes.

 

If I recall correctly, the Caestus was the Astartes' "improvement" over the Shark-class boarding torpedo.  As with most things Astartes it was beefier, sturdier and could transport more Astartes than the boarding torpedos.  The combination of mag-clamps, melta- and las-cutters and charges made sure that (1) the ram held to the ship's hull securely and (2) had the ability to chew through the hull to deliver its payload.  And, much like the boarding torpedos, the Caestus had to be stout in the front end in order to punch through meters of exterior in order to get somewhere inside to deliver said payload.  Thus, doors on the sides wouldn't be effective because of the delivery method.

 

Plus, the Caestus was granted anti-gravitic capabilities which led to its use in non-space missions which greatly enhanced its deployment capabilities but didn't pose a need to reposition the door or change the construction layout.  One tool for multiple tasks is more efficient than multiple tools for multiple tasks.

 

Stay safe,

 

don

[InfestedKerrigan]

I think they covered your question.  ;)

[AbusePuppy]

In example, the SM Rapier Battery from the same "IA:2 2nd edition" has the Extremely Bulky rule, despite being artillery and no SM vehicles (FW or otherwise) having the noted ability to transport Artillery.

 

Actually, there are two situations where the Bulky rule on an Artillery piece (or Bike, etc) would come up- first, when being shot by a R'varna's main cannon, which causes extra hits on such models. And second, when embarking on a Superheavy transport (such as the Thunderhawk, Stormlord, etc) which are allowed to transport other unit types and can carry multiple units.