Simple Army Composition....

[Guest]

So, I really like how simple this format is:

8-10 War Scrolls Army
100 wound army cap
25 wound scroll cap
1-3 Heroes/Wizards
0-3 Warmachines
0-3 Monsters

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters

All models must be of the same faction (Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction)

 

That said, I've been noting that it doesn't really work very well in certain areas:

 

-Many factions feature units intended to be wound heavy, like many skaven units, which become rapidly less appealing with a wound cap, and a wound cap per unit. If the wound cap is mostly intended around easy of play, a suggestion for required movement trays for units beyond a certain model count size seems like the solution. I suggest removing the 25 wound max on units, especially given that their still limited by the 100 total wounds.

 

-Combining the Hero and Wizard caps seems like a foolish idea. Given that a mode which is a hero and a wizard counts towards both areas, the combination of the two is rather redundant. I suggest 0-3 wizards and 1-3 heroes instead.

 

-It is very noteworthy that many factions are not as blessed in warmachine access as others. According to the GW site, there are 17 Order faction warmachines. There are 4 for Chaos, 3 for Destruction, and only 1 for Death. Given the wound and warscroll caps, seems like the 0-3 limit on warmachines hinders only the Order faction and doesn't really affect game balance. I suggest dropping the limit on warmachines. With the above comp limitations, you could include a maximum of 9 warmachines, as their is a required hero/wizard and a cap on 10 total warscrolls. I don't think 9 war machines as the entire army would be very effective.

 

-The 0-3 cap on monsters seems perfectly reasonable, as does the max warscrolls and max wounds.

 

So, my suggested format is:

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army
100 wound army cap
1-3 Heroes

0-3 Wizards
0-3 Monsters

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters

All models must be of the same faction (Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction).

[Threejacks]

I would be up for trying this:)

 

One thing ive found though is that the 100 wound count can lead to some rather long running games,longer than 2 hrs.Im good with still playing at that cap for now and keeping track of how long games go on.For purposes of some sort of event I think the games will need to be cut down to a 1.5 hr time limit so eventually if we find 100 wounds taking too long,we may need to cull it down to 80 or so.

[Guest]

I would be up for trying this:)

 

One thing ive found though is that the 100 wound count can lead to some rather long running games,longer than 2 hrs.Im good with still playing at that cap for now and keeping track of how long games go on.For purposes of some sort of event I think the games will need to be cut down to a 1.5 hr time limit so eventually if we find 100 wounds taking too long,we may need to cull it down to 80 or so.

80 sounds reasonable.

 

Though, I've been thinking that movement trays is the way to go to speed things up. I always thought the WHFB had a smart idea with those trays. Basically, make those 8-10 warscrolls into 8-10 bases worth of models.

 

Not sure when we should play next, but I'd be down for

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army

80 wound army cap

1-3 Heroes

0-3 Wizards

0-3 Monsters

 

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters

All models must be of the same faction (Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction).

[Malakithe]

Where does summoning come in? Should I make a separate pool of scrolls or just have whatever until they appear?

[Guest]

Where does summoning come in? Should I make a separate pool of scrolls or just have whatever until they appear?

My suggested comp doesn't cover summoning, just like the one it replaces. Basically, I can't think of a good mechanic to limit summoning, without defeating the point or making the wizards considerably weaker than they should be. The comp covers the starting army only.

 

My plan for my army is just to field less wizards and do less summoning....

[Malakithe]

With a wound cap it wouldn't get to out of control at least with big guys. The carnasaur is 12 and a block of guard is 30 so that's nearly half with just 2 scrolls

[Guest]

With a wound cap it wouldn't get to out of control at least with big guys. The carnasaur is 12 and a block of guard is 30 so that's nearly half with just 2 scrolls

You mean, remove the cap on monsters?

[Malakithe]

No I was saying that it balances it out with the caps that way so things aren't out of hand with high wound single scrolls. If there was no monster cap you would fill up the 80 wounds really quick I would think

[Guest]

No I was saying that it balances it out with the caps that way so things aren't out of hand with high wound single scrolls. If there was no monster cap you would fill up the 80 wounds really quick I would think

Ah, then yeah, we agree.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure the cap on wounds is needed, but we do need a mechanic to limit options in a turn so the game ends...I suppose, rather than an army comp, could just play with a time limit per turn and for deployment. Big, complex armies would really suffer. I'd rather stay away from that sort of thing, but it would probably be the easiest way to balance the game without altering the game rules much.

[WestRider]

So, I really like how simple this format is:

8-10 War Scrolls Army

100 wound army cap

25 wound scroll cap

1-3 Heroes/Wizards

0-3 Warmachines

0-3 Monsters

 

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters

All models must be of the same faction (Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction)

 

That said, I've been noting that it doesn't really work very well in certain areas:

 

-Many factions feature units intended to be wound heavy, like many skaven units, which become rapidly less appealing with a wound cap, and a wound cap per unit. If the wound cap is mostly intended around easy of play, a suggestion for required movement trays for units beyond a certain model count size seems like the solution. I suggest removing the 25 wound max on units, especially given that their still limited by the 100 total wounds.

I've seen a couple of variations that count some Units at half a Wound per actual Wound for purposes of both single Unit and Army caps. Usually stuff like Zombies and Skaven Slaves. Things that either have a bonus that doesn't kick in until over 25 Models, or that start at 20 Models or something like that.

[Guest]

Hey, what about a 0-1 cap on named heroes, instead of a ban on duplicates?

 

I'll admit, some of those named heroes looks really fun, but also really broken, especially when combined with other things.

 

Also, are there actually any named monsters which aren't heroes? Or is the limit on named heroes/monsters redundant? How about no duplicate named warscrolls?

 

Oh, I do think there should be a ban on summoning named heroes unless the spell/ability mentions them by name (as opposed to keyword only). For example, you couldn't use the Screaming Bell to summon Lord Skreech Vermin King, even though he's a verminlord and the screaming bell can summon those. Likewise, you couldn't use the Great Bray Shaman to summon named monsters, even though the spell only requires the monster keyword.

[Malakithe]

The wounds cap might be tricky for high model counts like skaven. I was looking at scrollbuilder and having problems fielding only a couple units of 10-15 with other stuff. Maybe removing the head wound cap but keeping it to scrolls with other restrictions could work...bring it down to maybe 7-9 instead

[Guest]

The wounds cap might be tricky for high model counts like skaven. I was looking at scrollbuilder and having problems fielding only a couple units of 10-15 with other stuff. Maybe removing the head wound cap but keeping it to scrolls with other restrictions could work...bring it down to maybe 7-9 instead

I've been looking at skaven and not having major issues because their warmachines (weapon teams) have so few wounds for single model warscrolls. For skaven, looking at a unit of 30, a unit of 20, a 5 wound character, another 5-wound character and 5 weapon teams. And you can alter that up, as the need be, but I haven't had major issues unless I try to build deathstars.

 

With an 80 wound cap, 15 wounds is a good size DPS unit, while 30 wounds is a tank unit. Anything more than 30 wounds is rather excessive (though it could still be done).

 

I do see units, like those slaves, suffering, though you can certainly buff them up if you want. I haven't found many situations where I thought the slaves would be a better unit than another skaven unit. They may get bonuses at huge sizes, but they don't really do much at any size relative to what clanrats or stormvermin can do with the same number of wounds.

[Malakithe]

The saurus have rank bonuses at 20 and 30, hit roll and attack. I'm sure other armies have rank bonuses as well for basic infantry. With the 80 wounds cap I wouldnt be able to take any of the formations at all if I wanted.

[Malakithe]

I was just playing with scrollbuilder and managed to fit a battalion. 3x12 infantry and 1 hero. Takes up half the wounds and a hero spot. Makes the overall army kinda specialized but otherwise works

[Threejacks]

Yeah,there are several formations that are quite large in wound count,Stormcast have an Army Formation I would like to try someday but it has a minimum of 104 wounds I think,heh.

 

Really,as far as wound count goes,its just in place to keep games manageable.We could just as easily say that players can bring any models they want to use and use the Hero/Wizard/Monster/WM scroll restrictions then choose what we want to use at game setup,which in most cases is the alternating setup method.Steel Angel and I played several games just using a 10 Warscroll cap as the only guideline and they seemed to work out fine.

 

Basic scenario setup would go something like this;

 

Agree on time limit-usually 1.5 hrs to 2.5 hrs

Agree or Roll for what Battleplan to use

Setup terrain,choose sides

Begin placing Warscrolls alternating unless otherwise directed by scenario rules.

 

This is probably closest to the intention of how the game is to be played,only we added some(much needed) restrictions in to keep players from placing 20 hero`s or a huge monster mash onto the board.

It also makes players think about how much of a force they are going to need in order to win the game within the time limit set.If both sides escalate too much during placement then its very likely the game will time out and will end in a draw.

 

My son and I are gonna try it like this using the Laws of War supplement and see how it works out.

[Guest]

The saurus have rank bonuses at 20 and 30, hit roll and attack. I'm sure other armies have rank bonuses as well for basic infantry. With the 80 wounds cap I wouldnt be able to take any of the formations at all if I wanted.

Yeah, it does block most of the formations, but I haven't seen any must have formations yet. They add nifty options, but nothing like the brokenness of 40k's formations.

 

 

Yeah,there are several formations that are quite large in wound count,Stormcast have an Army Formation I would like to try someday but it has a minimum of 104 wounds I think,heh.

 

Really,as far as wound count goes,its just in place to keep games manageable.We could just as easily say that players can bring any models they want to use and use the Hero/Wizard/Monster/WM scroll restrictions then choose what we want to use at game setup,which in most cases is the alternating setup method.Steel Angel and I played several games just using a 10 Warscroll cap as the only guideline and they seemed to work out fine.

 

Basic scenario setup would go something like this;

 

Agree on time limit-usually 1.5 hrs to 2.5 hrs

Agree or Roll for what Battleplan to use

Setup terrain,choose sides

Begin placing Warscrolls alternating unless otherwise directed by scenario rules.

 

This is probably closest to the intention of how the game is to be played,only we added some(much needed) restrictions in to keep players from placing 20 hero`s or a huge monster mash onto the board.

It also makes players think about how much of a force they are going to need in order to win the game within the time limit set.If both sides escalate too much during placement then its very likely the game will time out and will end in a draw.

 

My son and I are gonna try it like this using the Laws of War supplement and see how it works out.

I will note that a huge monster mash or hero spam would run into lots of issues, as many units are given bonuses against heroes or monsters.

 

I've been thinking that we should get each warscroll onto a movement tray (design is up to the player), then have a cap on movement trays per game, rather than wound or model count. Should be pretty to manage giant units if they all move are summoned as one base.

[Malakithe]

Yeah most 40k formations are crazy. The one I'm looking at is 4 warscrolls: 3 'elite' infantry, 1 hero. Most of the Seraphon formations are 4ish warscrolls

[Guest]

Okay, so how's this:

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army
80 wound army cap
1-3 Heroes

0-3 Wizards
0-3 Monsters

0-1 Named Warscrolls (aka, special characters)

All models must be of the same faction (Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction).

During the game, summoned/reinforcement units may not be gained if they exceed the above limits (excess models are consider slain on arrival, which may cause battleshock tests or trigger abilities, ect.).

[Malakithe]

That summoning rule looks good. So if say I'm down to 40 wounds then I can summon some units and if the army is fresh turn 1 with no casualties then no summoning...and prevents monster/wizard spam.

[Guest]

2 changes.

 

First is the 0-1 on special characters, which is no longer limited to just duplicates.

 

Second is the restriction on summoning units to increase the game size beyond the starting army requirements. This combines with the first change to prevent summoning of special characters if a special character is already on the table.

[Guest]

Also means that if I've got 3 monsters on the table, I can't summon another. Same for warmachines, heroes, etc.

 

The only issue with the format is that it means needing to keep track of your total wounds when playing a summoning army.

[Malakithe]

Yeah but that's not too bad considering how balanced it sounds

[Guest]

Yeah but that's not too bad considering how balanced it sounds

Agree, does look like most of the summon issues are solved if the above comp prevents them from summoning beyond what a starting army would have. That said, it does mean that a non-summoning army still faces the issue of coping with an army that might not be getting any smaller during the game. I suppose that's where they focus on killing those 3 wizards in short order....

[Threejacks]

Okay, so how's this:

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army

80 wound army cap

1-3 Heroes

0-3 Wizards

0-3 Monsters

0-1 Named Warscrolls (aka, special characters)

All models must be of the same faction (Order/Chaos/Death/Destruction).

During the game, summoned/reinforcement units may not be gained if they exceed the above limits (excess models are consider slain on arrival, which may cause battleshock tests or trigger abilities, ect.).

Its worth some games to see how it goes:)

 

My first thought is that it may hit "Fodder summoning" lists a bit too hard.It also reduces summoning to more of a "unit regeneration" status.

 

On the flip side it would certainly minimize the effects on summoning lists of battles that use the kill percentage to determine victory.

 

One thing to keep in mind about going this route is that players can really take advantage of the "Reduce but don't kill the unit" strategy,which I tend to do a lot of against summoning armies.