SDK points and Warscroll Battalions

[Malakithe]

Yeah some are kinda nuts but for good reason. If I wanted to summon a Bastiladon that's 368 right there. But that guys a beast so it makes sense.

 

Not really sure what I would want to summon yet either

[Guest]

Okay, so I'm assuming that models "returned to play" also must come from this 500pts sideboard?

[Threejacks]

Okay, so I'm assuming that models "returned to play" also must come from this 500pts sideboard?

Yes,thats the way the TO`s that are using this kind of setup are doing it...the sideboard allows a player to customize their army at game setup as well as being a source of additional models/units that a summoner would draw from during the game.

 

Actually though im thinking models that are returned to play,say from a TK banner would actually not come from the sideboard and would actually come from the pool of dead and "removed from play" models.

 

Both sources of models added to a game would still count as casualties suffered under the RAW victory conditions should those conditions be in effect(rarely used)

[Guest]

Actually though im thinking models that are returned to play,say from a TK banner would actually not come from the sideboard and would actually come from the pool of dead and "removed from play" models.

Why? Why would some armies be exempt from the sideboard limitation?

 

I think putting a cap on the maximum "collection" I can summon from is reasonable. Capping the maximum models added to an army in-game by points seems a bit unfair, but I can roll with that. Saying that only some armies are limited seems entirely unfair.

 

Both sources of models added to a game would still count as casualties suffered under the RAW victory conditions should those conditions be in effect(rarely used)

I'm still pretty sure that isn't what the RAW says, but I agree that it's a fair way to limit models added to the starting army. It's also notable that most missions don't use those rules, and specifically have different victory conditions

[Threejacks]

" Why? Why would some armies be exempt from the sideboard limitation?"

 

Think of it this way,the sideboard is the reserve pool to draw from when placing new units onto the board through summoning or other means not related to reincarnation or bringing back of models that have been "removed from play" already.

 

Also,when using this system,the player that is using the "removed from play" Pool to bring models back will have to keep those models separate from the sideboard models.So no summoning new skeleton units using models that have been slain/removed from play already.

 

 

As for capping summoning at the sideboard amount,thats just taken from what im seeing as what most TO`s that use a sideboard do...Its likely to keep summoned armies under control and keep game times in line for event scheduals.I would like to discuss this further but its a bit off topic here.

[Guest]

Think of it this way,the sideboard is the reserve pool to draw from when placing new units onto the board through summoning or other means not related to reincarnation or bringing back of models that have been "removed from play" already.

The main Rules don't treat them differently. There's even a blurb in in the rules where they qualify any source of models added to the army to be considered when calculating army casualties. I think summoning is one game mechanic that is common to daemon armies (Seraphon and Chaos), while most other armies have alternative game mechanics to either regain or heal models.

 

Given the high cost of wizards in the SDK system, having a further limitation on summoning seems unfair, especially if the other factions are not equally hindered when adding models to their army.

 

Your Stormguard Eternal have an option that brings back multiple units. As far as I can tell, the Stormguard have lots of options that would be magic in any other army, but their special trait is that they don't require the same magical limitations as others do for their spells, but in drawback, they have less options for unbinding spells and other wizard related functions. Feels especially unfair when a Stormguard Eternal player complains about magic.

[Threejacks]

The "Overthrow the Tyrant" once per game rule from the Time of War supplement is available to all Order and Destruction armies,while the "Legions of Chaos" once per game rule is available to all Chaos faction armies.The Legions of Chaos table does require a die roll to determine what is available to bring in,and if the result is a one then the general takes d3 morts and turns into a spawn with no reinforcements being able to be brought in,so it does have that possible drawback compared to the Order side that just gets a new Stormcast unit for every 3+ they roll(Total dice rolled is based on the game turns played so far).

 

So its not just Stormcast who can use the Time of war rules,, its everyone except the Death faction that gets a once per game chance at new units being brought into the fight...

 

 

Now,there is an alternative that I have in mind,,this is something I haven't seen tried yet but it does have some basis in the fundamental rules of the game,,well an interpretation in that.I have brought this up recently...

 

Basically,summoning would be totally from a players collection they have brought to play with.Yes,this means that if someone brings 3243098 skeleton models,they could summon all of them if they had the time,luck and board space to get them out.Now that being said,when a model AND a warscroll is removed from play then it is out of the game and cannot be resummoned,,once again summoned models must come from a players collection...dead and removed from play models DONT go back to your collection until after the game has ended.There is nothing in the rules defining were a dead and removed from play model goes...now of course there are rules and abilities that allow dead and or slain models to be returned to play,this would be fine in this case to bring it out of the dead pool and place it back onto the table as that's whats specified to do.So when skeleton # 43506 dies,it is no longer part of the game,unlike your entire collection you have with you to play is,but when the banner bearer activates his ability to reincarnate models,then skeleton #43506 can come back into play.

 

This would be the same for Warscrolls,,that is once a warscroll of models all have been "Slain or removed from play" then its gone and goes into the dead pool.If that was the last warscroll of skeletons on the field then the ability to summon more skeletons is now gone,as the spell is no longer in play.Of course if theres an ability to reincarnate or "bring back dead or slain" models that would also bring back a new warscroll with them(as in reincarnate a unit as a whole) then that would be fine to do as well.

 

There are some who interpret the game to be played just like above,though they are in the minority however it does seem to be a rather viable way to play summoning.The biggest fear many have is the players who will continually summon multiple monsters and Hero`s.Perhaps using a system like this and coming up with something to stop the Hero/Monster summoning spam is something to try out.

[Guest]

There are some who interpret the game to be played just like above,though they are in the minority however it does seem to be a rather viable way to play summoning.The biggest fear many have is the players who will continually summon multiple monsters and Hero`s.Perhaps using a system like this and coming up with something to stop the Hero/Monster summoning spam is something to try out.

Do we really need finite rules for this? Can't just say, "don't spam summoning." We're doing a casual group, not a tournament, right? If something proves overly broken that a specific player is doing, can't we just address the player? I know I'm certainly willing to adjust a list if it proves unreasonable for casual play. But I really don't like huge restrictions on my army just because someone we don't even know doesn't understand how casual play is supposed to function. It should be fun for all players.

 

I've got two games so far. First game, the mission was certain bent in our favor, and your army lacked anti-spell options, which ultimately gave us a victory by the mission. The second game, I got butchered by turn 2, with all my wizards easily dispatched by villainous stormcast and their lorax-spawn allies.

 

I've looked over that stormcast "codex" and it doesn't seem like your army should be found lacking against summoning heavy armies.

 

Though, my suggestion, as before, to balance summoning, would be to add a custom spell to all wizards called "unsummon"

 

Unsummon

Spell is known to all wizards automatically. Select a warscroll within 6" of your wizard. Warscrolls may be targeted only if they were summoned into play in the current turn, or in the opponent's last turn. The casting value is equal to the casting value of the spell that summoned the Warscroll+4. Unsummoned units are removed from play, but do not count as slain models/units. Warscrolls summoned with a spell that doesn't use a casting value and were summoned in current or opponent's last turn may still be targeted, but have a casting value 14. Abilities which cast spells without a casting roll cannot use this spell.

Not easy, but it gives an alternative option to slaying summoned forces.

 

Idea is basically a second chance after failing to unbind a summon. The flip side, is that this second chance is harder and requires depleting your own spells. Not to mention that as a spell, the Unsummon is subject to unbinding. So it would be a tactical decision.

 

The range is low to take into account that many models can increase a spell's range. Idea is that if the target is able to unbind, you shouldn't be able to unsummon them without them at least getting to try to unbind the unsummon.

[Malakithe]

Summoning should be straight forward. At least it is for Seraphon. Only a Slann can summon.

 

Want to summon a new Eternity Warden? Roll a 5, slap him down within 15" and your done. Want to pull a stegadon? Roll 10, slap it down. Those should come from either a sideboard or summon pool for ease of keeping track of stuff at a minimum.

 

Now the wife has a woodelf spellweaver who can bring back from the dead slain models from a unit. Those shouldn't be treated the same cuz the wording alone suggests they are completely different. I agree with the removed from play pool/summoning pool.

 

What I think we need to focus on is finding a reasonable comp system that works first then set restrictions. That tournament pdf says 1500 with 750 summoning pool. Can't summon heroes no matter what and only 1 monster. That's as balanced as it will get I'm thinking...or something similar at least

[Threejacks]

"Do we really need finite rules for this?"

 

In short,yes we do.The summoning alone is one of the top reasons why there are masses of gamers that wont even give AoS a chance.RaW there is nothing that ensures a player wont put an army together and head out looking for a pick up game then have to face some guy throwing down a Nagash followed by a Terrorghiest each turn for four turns along with Black Knights,Vargulfs and an assortment of smaller fodder units.This certainly is an extreme example but a similar situation could arise with someone throwing out 4+ casters with blobs of ranged fodder units to plop down as soon as the game starts...or even the 4 slann and multiple Dinos ready to go.That being said,the alternative that I just posted above would allow this sort of play to happen as those models would be coming from their collection,,of course they wouldn't be able to resummons them after they are placed in the dead pool,unless they came from a unit that allowed that.Thus the reason I mentioned a limit on Monster/Hero summoning at the end of it.

 

Now certainly in our group that's not going to happen but the game is still very new and we want to grow the group if possible so we do indeed need to address this in some capacity.Every fan comp out there has some sort of restriction on summoning,some are very mild with some not even allowing summoning at all.

 

The dispel idea is interesting but im not sure how often that would even come into play with the very short range and the +4 beyond base casting,this right there would pretty much eliminate all but a select few buffed wizards from having any chance of dispelling a monster/hero type summons.

 

What if we allowed as I suggested,that is summoning from your collection and dead models are dead and gone..and allowed the sideboard for army customization.That way you wouldn't feel that you have to load up your sideboard with your summoning pool and thus not have many choices for army customizing.

 

Either way,good to be talking about this stuff:)

[Malakithe]

All I want to do is field the models I like and not cuz they are OP or whatever. For me that's carnasaur and Bastiladon. Everything else is just filler lol the Slann is kinda nuts but is squishy. So if I field him I need to protect it which means Warden and Guard. Guard as just flat out better then warriors, that's a no brainer plus they look cooler.

 

Not really a huge fan of small fast stuff. I was the same in 40k. Played Dark Angels. I hated bikes but only used a few to help the deathwing. Kinda translates the same for Seraphon. I like the idea of a slow moving ground force with small support here and there.

 

That's my train of thought at least. Now to slap all that into 1500pts lol there is the Eternal Starhost formation which is 1 Eternity Warden+3 units of Guard that fits but not much support. That's where the summoning comes in

[Malakithe]

I like the restricted pool ideas. Dead is dead unless the specific unit says come back. Then you have your shiny new, haven't seen table action yet summon pool. Slap some no hero or wizard and 1 monster restrictions on it and done. Super easy. Or something similar to that

[Steel Angel]

Sigh wish we could up points limit.

 

so what are the army building rules we are using restrictions and all?

[Guest]

The dispel idea is interesting but im not sure how often that would even come into play with the very short range and the +4 beyond base casting,this right there would pretty much eliminate all but a select few buffed wizards from having any chance of dispelling a monster/hero type summons.

It has a base short range because there are ways to increase the range and I don't think being able to cast it without a chance of unbinding is reasonable. The other, main function of the short range is that it discourages players to summon units and then charge them into combat. We could up it 9" but anything more would be easily unbalanced. This is because there are scenery options which double the range of spells. With an excess of 18" of range, this spell would be entirely broken.

 

Besides, one of the key points of this spell is that it doesn't require range to the original caster, but to the unit summoned. So a unit that charges after being summoned is much more vulnerable to this spell than ones summoned to the backfield.

 

As for the +4 casting value (CV), it's actually pretty reasonable.

 

To cast a spell, you roll to meet or beat the CV of the spell.

To unbind a spell, you must meet or beat the roll used to cast the spell, not the CV of the spell.

So unbinding requires a minimum CV+1.

 

The unsummon spell does not use the roll the unit was summoned on, rather, it uses the CV of the spell+4.

Given that an unbinding attempt requires CV+1, the unsummon attempt only requires CV+3 over the minimum unbinding roll required to initially unbind the spell.

Unlike unbinding, this spell can be attempted multiple times.

 

Getting buffs to both casting and unbinding is pretty simple, so +4 really isn't that tough. And it should be hard to remove 200-400pts worth of models from the table with a single spell.

[Malakithe]

Sigh wish we could up points limit.

 

so what are the army building rules we are using restrictions and all?

This...to both.

 

If we bumped it to 2k we probably wouldn't even need a sideboard/summoning pool. 1500 plus the 500 is 2k anyway

[Threejacks]

Sigh wish we could up points limit.

 

so what are the army building rules we are using restrictions and all?

1500 points SDK with a 500 point sideboard(or as close as you can get to it) for army customizing at deployment.

 

Pretty much what we were doing a few months ago ,just added the sideboard as they are popping up more at events in some form or another:)

[Malakithe]

I think ima go out of my norm. I want to try to field a Shadowstrike Starhost which is mostly skink based. Should be interesting

[Guest]

1500 points SDK with a 500 point sideboard(or as close as you can get to it) for army customizing at deployment.

 

Pretty much what we were doing a few months ago ,just added the sideboard as they are popping up more at events in some form or another:)

Are we doing missions, or is this like tournament prep?

 

As stated, I have no interest in tournaments and am looking for casual play.

[Steel Angel]

Are we doing missions, or is this like tournament prep?

 

As stated, I have no interest in tournaments and am looking for casual play.

it can be both. Rcnjack has volunteered to run a AoS event at OFCC so he is working on a format. Nothing saids can't be casual at the same time.

 

Always found it strange how some folks say your a casual player OR a tournament player when most folks I know are both.

[Malakithe]

I'm cool with whatever. I'm lazy so I want to build a fun, not super complicated, but decently competitive when it needs to be list.

 

Format choice for events is the most important part

[Threejacks]

This would be for casual play and running book battleplans:)

 

The SDK points system is more exacting than just using wounds but yet is still very forgiving compared to other games points systems.It just gives us another way to start out with similar size forces and the sideboard allows for even further tuning with the goal of a close game:)

 

Even though I would like to try the Adepticon system at some point,im more in the casual side of the game as well and would like to come up with something that could possibly be attractive to both views of gaming...if that's even possible of course,heh.

[Threejacks]

I think ima go out of my norm. I want to try to field a Shadowstrike Starhost which is mostly skink based. Should be interesting

 

That's actually the one I collected additional skinks to run.Though I only have 6 Chameleon skins so far and would have to fill in the other units with regular Skinks.

[Guest]

This would be for casual play and running book battleplans:)

 

The SDK points system is more exacting than just using wounds but yet is still very forgiving compared to other games points systems.It just gives us another way to start out with similar size forces and the sideboard allows for even further tuning with the goal of a close game:).

If my summoning is capped by the sideboard, how does the same sideboard allow me to "tune" my army prior to a game?

 

Seems like my army is being limited by the actions of others, or rather, the feared actions of others. I don't see merit in limiting summoning without cause. And the current cap is certainly unreasonable if it doesn't include all added forces.

 

What I see is 3 order players ganging up on the one chaos player.

[Guest]

Always found it strange how some folks say your a casual player OR a tournament player when most folks I know are both.

Some identify as both, but there is certainly a difference. I have not met players who I'd qualify as both, though I haven't evaluated all the players I've met.

[Steel Angel]

If my summoning is capped by the sideboard, how does the same sideboard allow me to "tune" my army prior to a game?

 

Seems like my army is being limited by the actions of others, or rather, the feared actions of others. I don't see merit in limiting summoning without cause. And the current cap is certainly unreasonable if it doesn't include all added forces.

 

What I see is 3 order players ganging up on the one chaos player.

 

Wow pax your right everything we have been discussing and talking about is all so we can handicap you. Darn sorry guys he figured it out our plans have been discovered.