Threejacks Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 If my summoning is capped by the sideboard, how does the same sideboard allow me to "tune" my army prior to a game? Seems like my army is being limited by the actions of others, or rather, the feared actions of others. I don't see merit in limiting summoning without cause. And the current cap is certainly unreasonable if it doesn't include all added forces. What I see is 3 order players ganging up on the one chaos player. Its not limited by your sideboard,you can summon from whatever models you bring with you,,as in "your collection".Same with anyone that is using any rules to bring additional models into their army in whatever way,for instance with the once per game Time of war rules for everyone except the Death faction. The Adepticon rules are the ones that have the limitation on the summoning and all that.We are just going to try out SKD without any slot restrictions and see how that goes. Also,at this point lets not use any "Dead and Removed" restrictions on summoning but be mindful of what we summon or bring in from the models that we tote down to play with and see if there would be many instances were the recycling of dead models through summoning would be something that comes into play.Im of the belief that the rules show us there is three conditions of models during a game of AoS,,those in your "collection" that are not taking any part in the current battle unless fate lends a hand(they get summoned or brought in somehow),Those that are "In play" ,and those that are "dead and removed" from play.Warscrolls fall into these same catagories.For now though I would like to see how much of an impact this interpretation would have on gameplay if it was to be used.I have a feeling that if the game is played using these implied conditions then the summoning issue would be solved for all but the most obnoxious of "that guy" situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Wait summoning is separate from the sideboard 500 pool? Well there isn't any real wiggle room with my 1500 list cuz everything is either 100pts or 350pts so I'm not doing a sideboard at all. I made a list with the Shadowstrike formation but after adding a couple monsters and another wizard there is no real room to swap units Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Of course this is all a pipedream since I don't have any of the models or money to get them lol Shameless plug: gofundme.com/jmgymjr8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Why is there a warscroll for a skink chief on the app but no model sold on the website? There is no skink chief on scrollbuilder or my book too. So they are in some weird in between phasing out spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Why is there a warscroll for a skink chief on the app but no model sold on the website? Theres several instances of this in armies,even going back several editions. Just use a unit champion or something like that to represent:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Wait summoning is separate from the sideboard 500 pool? Well there isn't any real wiggle room with my 1500 list cuz everything is either 100pts or 350pts so I'm not doing a sideboard at all. I made a list with the Shadowstrike formation but after adding a couple monsters and another wizard there is no real room to swap units Yeah it can be hard to fill 500 points and be exact with it.Though it should allow for at least a few different models to be available for use if a player was to face an opponent running a strong ranged list,maybe heavy summoning or several monsters,stuff like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Theres several instances of this in armies,even going back several editions. Just use a unit champion or something like that to represent:) I was thinking that but they don't exist in scrollbuilder at all so I couldn't use it even if I wanted to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Ahh yeah,I didn't notice your second part there...probably should let the site admin there know about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 How would I inform the admins? I can't find any contact info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathanvoodoo Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 I'm not sure I understand the summoning sideboard? You make a 1500 point list but keep an additional 500 points off board just to summon? Why not just have all 2k be the list with the option of holding whatever you want to summon off table, and the ability to bring dead pile units back in. Giving a list an extra 500 points to access at will gives a distinct point advantage. What about lists that kinda use summoning, but kinda don't, like my "Nugles Deluge" list? I think just setting a list of "this is the total number of points of models I brought to play with today" is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 The sideboard is something that is being seen more in event comps and is used just to allow customizing of your list based on your opponents army. Add-on all model summoning can come from your collection as a whole. I'm on my phone now so I'll elaborate more later:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 5, 2016 Report Share Posted January 5, 2016 Sideboards exist in a lot of games and it's a good idea. I feel there needs to be restrictions thou for the summoning other then anything you want. Maybe no wizards, 1 hero/1 monster? How many armies full on summon anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I feel there needs to be restrictions thou for the summoning other then anything you want. Maybe no wizards, 1 hero/1 monster? How many armies full on summon anyway? Two armies full on summon. Seraphon and Chaos Daemons. The Death faction can summon, but their game mechanics allow them to gain models without summoning, too. Before you get into restricting summoning, please explain the actual issue(s) with summoning. As I see it, the main issues are found in certain special characters (like nagash), in chain summoning, and in the concept of "free units". Since units returning to play, like with that Stormguard ability, don't seem to be an issue, I don't think the "free units" argument is value. Plus, there are far too many in-game abilities which don't summon specifically, but do add models or units into play for "free." I agree with the issue regarding chain summoning. I also agree with regard to some special characters either doing the summoning or being summoned, they can be very disastrous for game balance. I will also note that daemons summoning more daemons is very fluffy for almost every fiction that features daemons and magic. So I think the solution needs to be one that doesn't change the fluff of a daemon army. A summoning focused army should be a feasible option with any "balancing" of the summoning rules. To restrict the summoning too much changes the entire role of daemons within the setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Demon armies rely heavily on summoning as do Undead. The main difference between the sideboard and the rest of the players collection is that units in the sideboard are actually part of the army list,as in they are available to swap out for other models prior to game start.While the players "collection" is the rest of the models that they have brought beyond the base army list models and the sideboard models.Now of course players could use the sideboard models to be brought in through summoning if they have them in the sideboard..in terms of were models that can be summoned come from,it makes no difference at this point.After a game starts the sideboard becomes part of the overall "Collection" that is not taking any part in the battle unless fate lends a hand. For instance I bring my sons Undead army,he works up a 1500 pt list that includes a warscroll of Skeleton warriors and a scroll of Zombies.Then makes up a sideboard of a skull catapult,a unit of skeleton archers and a unit of Hexwraiths with which to switch out with the main army if he thinks he will need one or some of these instead of whats in the base list..all is fine as long as he doesn't exceed the 1500 pt starting army. However im not done loading up the foams as he wants to have some extra models to have off to the side in addition to the sideboard,these models will be all the extras to summon up with,skeletons,hexwraiths etc... As it stands,lets try this without any restrictions on summoning,Hero slots or Monster slots and see how it goes. If there were to be any restrictions,the first thing I would suggest is to have Warscrolls of models that have been fully removed from the table,be removed as well.For instance I loose my last Skeleton Warrior model on the table,,the warscroll for the Skeleton warriors is no longer available so the spell to summon them is no longer in play.This would mean that if a player wants to continually summon throughout the game,they pretty much need to keep 2 units of Skeletons going or be ready to summon one when the other one is low on models.Monsters summoners would pretty much need to have at least 2 in the collection if they want to cycle through them. Now if the filth continues even with the above restriction then I would suggest to go further and move on to what I think the original intent of the rules is in terms of summoning and such.That would be that once a model is dead,it goes into the dead and removed from play pool along with its warscroll.These models could be brought back only by warscroll rules/spells that specify that models can be brought back from being dead or slain.Summoned models will continue to come from a players "collection" until their collection is depleted. Im aware that the above system does nothing to stop a player from plopping down Nagash along with his filthy cadre of a Terrorghiest,Mortis engine, Skeletons,Zombies,Black Knights coupled with a sizable "Collection" of resummoning stock,then proceeding to show off epic gamer skills in rolling 4ups to multiply his filth by 4 fold in 2 game turns.However no system if going to be proof against "That guy". As far as unrestricted summoning goes and what ive seen.Paxmiles and Colin played me once and summoning was hard to get past,mainly due to them as a team had 4 summoners and I had pretty much no counters(though I wouldn't have been close enough to use them anyway).I did have some lightning strike options though and some ranged abilitie.Anyhow,all told the summoning wasn't all that bad. Nathan and I have squared off before with his Nurgles Deluge force and I didn't find that to be any issues at all in terms of unit power,though those little demon things are quite the tarpit. Probably the biggest problem im seeing now is the games im doing with my Son using our Undead,,im actually pretty stoked that hes decided to run them for a bit,maybe ill even get him to paint some of the models,hehe.Anyhow ive been building with more countering and ranged/Hero sniping units and have had some success,though I usually end up facing the much larger summoned fodder army near game end with a much depleted force of my own,,this after finishing off his summoners.This has happened a couple of times.One thing to note in both instances is that never at any point did he manage to have all of our 70 or so skeleton models(mix of archers and warriors) from the collection summoned into play.He has recycled a Morghast though,,and that situation could very well have won the game for him..were is if we were using the "dead is dead" rule as above that wouldn't have happened. Other things to keep in mind when considering the power of a summoning army are things like game time limits and Battleplan victory conditions.For time limits this can put the pinch on a summoning army as many usually have somewhat weaker warscrolls overall and rely on getting more volume to the table,when time is an issue they are a pinch to get their volume to bear on the opponent. For Battleplans,many have victory conditions such as destroying a players "Starting models",still not an easy task but ive played this before against my son and really,its not as hard as it seems to just run past summoned units and get charges off on the units that matter.remember that summoned models have to be played 9" away from enemy models and if they don't make that charge then they are sitting there for a whole turn,,even longer if you happen to steal initiative. Then of course theres the loss percentage scenarios which coupled with a time limit which ALL games have now,leave the summoning player in quite a pinch forcing them to choose to inflict more casualties on themselves in order to try and get ahead on the casualty counter. So if you think about it considering the original game rules as a whole,summoning is not all that bad.Yes there is potential for filth and I would even say that for an event type situation,we should probably be considering a mainstream comp system using its scenarios as well.But for casual play we may not need to do a bunch of extra work and houserules to keep it inline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Paxmiles and Colin played me once and summoning was hard to get past,mainly due to them as a team had 4 summoners and I had pretty much no counters(though I wouldn't have been close enough to use them anyway).I did have some lightning strike options though and some ranged abilitie.Anyhow,all told the summoning wasn't all that bad. We had 3 summoners at the start. I dropped my Lord of change to make room for his wizard. We met the comp requirements with our combined force, excluding the faction requirement. That comp didn't have a cap on wizards in play, so we summoned additional summoners during the game. I do think that mission was bent in our favor. I will also note that it was supposed to be a "learning game" so I was under the impression you were pulling punches in list creation. Your army was also doing considerably better in offense, with our defense only functioning because we were ably to summon additional forces to keep you away from our main wizards and from the objective in our backfield. If the objective had not been in our backfield, you would have had much more even match. I do agree that your lack of unbinding, and the presence of multiple arcane ruins in our backfield, enabled our summoning to be more than I think it is intended to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Wow...started reading up on how that guy got the points for the SDK system. I'll admit to not fully understanding the math, but I have a general idea. Some makes sense, while others seem iffy. Still, answers some questions I've had. In example, my daemon units are getting rather fierce multipliers due to having a bravery of 10. The keywords WIZARD, HERO, PRIEST, and MONSTER also all gain a multiplier, which is why my pink horrors cost so much more than other daemon troops (and so much more than comparable troops without the bravery 10 and wizard keywords). The system is very much built around a very standardized set of variables, with unusual units having odd interactions with the point system (often either underpriced or overpriced). Another flaw is that unusual abilities often don't affect the point score, which is probably why Kairos Fateweaver is cheaper than a Lord of change (a few points). Although it's very complicated already, I think too many stats are not accounted for. Although I don't agree with the system, I am impressed by how thought out it is and how much effort was put into its creation. Quite a feat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Yup,no system is perfect nor takes in all factors but SDK is probably the most widely accepted currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 I need them to add in the Skink chief. Curious how many points he would be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 If it's so widely accepted then it must be doing something right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 If it's so widely accepted then it must be doing something right Not really, just means a lack of competition. And don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to be complaining about the system, just stating why it doesn't work for me. Kinda the same thing, but different in intentions. If I'm going to play within this system, I need to adjust how I intend to play this game. My current way of playing the game is not compatible with many of the comp systems out there. Not because my style has any faults, but because my style can be easily abused by "that guy." Although I don't think changing the game for fear of "that guy" is reasonable, I also see that most events are changing and I must either adapt or shelve this game. Aside: I hate how easily GW games are victimized by the will of the majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Not sure if you looked at it yet Pax,but check out our Ordocomp system.It was put together by Sylvos and Gamergeek.I rather like it but some have said its a bit confusing to work with. Its pretty easy once ya do a few lists with it though. You can find it in the composition links thread that's pinned:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Not sure if you looked at it yet Pax,but check out our Ordocomp system.It was put together by Sylvos and Gamergeek.I rather like it but some have said its a bit confusing to work with. I had not, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Okay, question: If bringing back slain models isn't summoning then is transforming models from one thing to another also not summoning? I have numerous chaos methods to transform models into Chaos Spawn. Some are spells, some are not, but the unit is not "summoned" into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Summing is bringing a new unit to the table from wherever. Reviving/reanimating/whatever is bringing back some dead guys back to th eyes same unit they started in. Not sure about transformation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Ok scrapping my skink list. It's too glass cannon style/gimmicky. Going back to a Guard list. Just need to figure out synergy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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