Threejacks Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Okay, question: If bringing back slain models isn't summoning then is transforming models from one thing to another also not summoning? I have numerous chaos methods to transform models into Chaos Spawn. Some are spells, some are not, but the unit is not "summoned" into play. Yeah,there is several instances of this kind of thing. I would say its not summoning nor "bringing a new unit into play" as its just transforming an existing units.Of course a player would need to have a model in their collection of the "new form" in order to complete the transformation or the transformation would fail.They wouldn't be able to use a dead and removed from play model to complete the transformation with. Similar situation would be models being removed from play then teleported or "set up" in later phases or turns.These units would still be considered as part of a players starting army and not counted as new units brought into play.There are exceptions to this in regards to a units status but those are scenario based and mainly center around scenarios that have a condition of slaying a players starting forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Can I get a second opinion on the pink horrors specifically? Does this price for "core" troops really seem reasonable to you guys? I'm looking at models which are 19pts each, with a minimum size of 10 models (190pts). They are not even remotely able to contend with comparable 190pt units. And, if summoned, they can be summoned as a 20-man on a CV 11 cast, which sounds nice, but they really aren't worth 380pts in any respect, and greatly limit my army in any system that imposes a summoning cap. The crutch is that the main reason I picked up Tzeentch daemons is because I love these old horror models. I love these models, but they are crippling any army list I attempt to create for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Can I get a second opinion on the pink horrors specifically? Does this price for "core" troops really seem reasonable to you guys? I'm looking at models which are 19pts each, with a minimum size of 10 models (190pts). They are not even remotely able to contend with comparable 190pt units. And, if summoned, they can be summoned as a 20-man on a CV 11 cast, which sounds nice, but they really aren't worth 380pts in any respect, and greatly limit my army in any system that imposes a summoning cap. The crutch is that the main reason I picked up Tzeentch daemons is because I love these old horror models. I love these models, but they are crippling any army list I attempt to create for them. As you know its because they are wizards as well as ranged troops.Along with being 10 wounds of something that can summon anything with the Daemon keyword,they can also cast mystic shield( on themselves even) or supplement their ranged attack with a pretty fair chance at adding an addition d3 morts to a target.I think all comp systems hit them hard. Is there any "troop" type unit that compares?...as in 5+ save,ranged ability and can summon other units? Really,I think the idea here is that you would purchase one minimum unit to start with then summon in others as the game gets under way. Also,,Pink Horrors have already been abused by various "That Guy" stories.It started happening at the first events for the game during the Summer so you can thank those eff-tards for the high comp on Demons... Personally I don't think that are all that bad,but you don't have enough of them to be a real pain.They really aren't nearly as filthy as flamers in large (10+) groups are.But of course those guys aren't wizards either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 As you know its because they are wizards as well as ranged troops.Along with being 10 wounds of something that can summon anything with the Daemon keyword,they can also cast mystic shield( on themselves even) or supplement their ranged attack with a pretty fair chance at adding an addition d3 morts to a target.I think all comp systems hit them hard. Is there any "troop" type unit that compares?...as in 5+ save,ranged ability and can summon other units? Really,I think the idea here is that you would purchase one minimum unit to start with then summon in others as the game gets under way. Also,,Pink Horrors have already been abused by various "That Guy" stories.It started happening at the first events for the game during the Summer so you can thank those eff-tards for the high comp on Demons... Personally I don't think that are all that bad,but you don't have enough of them to be a real pain.They really aren't nearly as filthy as flamers in large (10+) groups are.But of course those guys aren't wizards either. For starters, the ability summon is granted by warscrolls and is not inherent to chaos wizards. The horrors can summon other horrors, yes, but they can't summon anything else without additional warscroll purchases. This is because the summon pink horrors spell is part of their own warscroll. As for daemons being summoned, not all CHAOS DAEMONS can be summoned, and there are certainly ORDER DAEMONS of which we lack the ability to summon. Now, as for "that guy" comments regarding abuse of the pink horrors, that is a failed argument. This is because "that guy" is much better off summoning heralds of Tzeentch, which have both a lower CV and more ability to "chain" spells due to the once per game use of casting on 3d6. And with Heralds being a smaller unit, they are easier to place both on the table and to afford the models of. The Heralds of Tzeentch are not overpriced, which is part of my point. The pink horrors are overpriced, but not because of anything they can uniquely do, but because the math for the point system doesn't work well with units of multiple models with the WIZARD keyword. This is because each model pays for the WIZARD keyword, while the unit only benefits from it a single time (since they cast my unit, not a spell for each model). And I will note that Pink horrors are 1 of 2 units with multiple models and the WIZARD keyword. The Doomfire Warlocks of the Dark Elves also have this (and they are ORDER). Their point cost are almost identical and they are both incredibly overpriced. As for numbers of Pink Horrors, I own about 30. That's 570pts for 30 wounds with 5+ saves and no defensive abilities. Even with a spell boosting their save, 4+ saves is not enough to justify 570pts for a meager 30 wounds. For Comparison, 15 Stormguard Prosecutors (30 wounds worth) are 525pts. They have over twice the movement, double the ranged attacks with an otherwise identical profile, superior melee stats and attacks, and 4+ save. Barring the summoning potential, the Pink Horrors are not equal to Stormguard Prosecutors, Pink Horrors are much worse. Now, you add in summoning, understand that I'm paying for it twice in most comp systems. First I pay for it by being a wizard in list creation comp, then I pay again in the comp system that limits summons (which most do). And on top of all that, summons are not a sure thing, and my summoning can certainly be countered by a savvy opponent. Meanwhile, I can field two bloodthirsters for the price of a 30-man blob of pink horrors (498pts for 2 of the cheapest bloodthirsters). The Bloodthirsters are definitely a better pair of units, while the horrors can only really earn their points back with repeated summoning. And those bloodthirsters are 14 wounds each, so with 72pts cheaper, I have only 2 less wounds. As for Chaos Daemons in general, I think the point system really doesn't work well for them, as it seems like the models that should be expensive are cheap and models that should be cheap are expensive. Kairos is cheaper than a Lord of Change. Those bloodthirsters are incredibly powerful and very cheap. So on and so forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Remember,currently with SDK we are not doing any slot restrictions..you can bring all Wizards,,all monsters or all hero..or any variation of the above.The idea being to allow anyone to bring anything they want but using the SDK points to at least have some level playing field.Hopefully this will be an alternative to using a wound comp with the slot restrictions. We are also currently not using a summoning cap so you can bring in as many as you want,chain summon themselves or whatever way you want to do it.Actually,take all the models you have and summon them in if you can..ive seen what can happen with Undead so I would like to see if Demons can do that even better,heh. The way I would look at it with the Pink Horrors is yes,they are expensive for the first batch,but then cost zero for the rest,and I would try to get at least another batch out turn one If I could.If you look at the cost stretched out over 3 min size units then each one is just north of 60 sdk points...and its very unlikely you will get anyone countering your spells on turn one so you have a better than 50% chance to get at least one batch out,,that right there just cut them down to 95 pts a batch and now you have 20 on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Yeah, I'm getting confused at which comp system we are actually using....lol. I did, actually, send an email to the guy that created the SDK points with comments about the Pink Horrors (and Doomfire Warlocks). I'm curious if I'll get a reply. Anyway, you keep going on about the summoning, but that isn't the issue. Any CHAOS WIZARD can summon like a champ for me, the Pink Horrors are just overpriced. I think the Doomfire Warlocks are also overpriced. My complaint on points is that math doesn't work out to reflect the intended balance like it does for single model wizards. If anything, I think most of the other Tzeentch wizards are underpriced. I am surprised you seem bent on the idea that pink horrors are some sort of exclusive summoners to chaos. The CHAOS DAEMON summoning spells give the spell to any CHAOS WIZARD, not just CHAOS DAEMON WIZARDS, so even a skaven grey seer can summon daemons like a pro. The point system doesn't even take the ability to summon into account for points (I was surprised on this one). No, the high cost of the Pink Horror unit is unrelated to their ability to summon. ..and its very unlikely you will get anyone countering your spells on turn one so you have a better than 50% chance to get at least one batch out,,that right there just cut them down to 95 pts a batch and now you have 20 on the field. Well, you say that, but it is very attainable for my army to counter your spells turn 1, so it seems possible for the reverse to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Ok I'm going back to using the Eternal Starhost battalion. Just need to determine unit sizes for the 3×Guard units. I'm thinking 8 each that way I can fit in somevery other units. My current list: Eternity Warden Slann BSB Skink Priest 3×8 Guard 2×5 Chameleon Skinks Bastiladon The skinks and Guard unit sizes I'm still tossing around but the rest is pretty solid I think. I was going to do the Skink army but that's too one trick pony for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Yeah, I'm getting confused at which comp system we are actually using....lol. I did, actually, send an email to the guy that created the SDK points with comments about the Pink Horrors (and Doomfire Warlocks). I'm curious if I'll get a reply. Anyway, you keep going on about the summoning, but that isn't the issue. Any CHAOS WIZARD can summon like a champ for me, the Pink Horrors are just overpriced. I think the Doomfire Warlocks are also overpriced. My complaint on points is that math doesn't work out to reflect the intended balance like it does for single model wizards. If anything, I think most of the other Tzeentch wizards are underpriced. I am surprised you seem bent on the idea that pink horrors are some sort of exclusive summoners to chaos. The CHAOS DAEMON summoning spells give the spell to any CHAOS WIZARD, not just CHAOS DAEMON WIZARDS, so even a skaven grey seer can summon daemons like a pro. The point system doesn't even take the ability to summon into account for points (I was surprised on this one). No, the high cost of the Pink Horror unit is unrelated to their ability to summon. Well, you say that, but it is very attainable for my army to counter your spells turn 1, so it seems possible for the reverse to be true. Yeah I meant to say Chaos as a whole... I hope you hear back from the SDK site on that because you actually are the first one Ive heard of that has an issue with the points on any of the specific units.Its been around since September I think?..maybe August and I don't recall reading about any unit point value issues,,though there isint any forums just for SDK that I know of either.Peopl have had issues with the pool points system but that's much more vague anyway. If most scenarios start armies at least 24" how do you intend to pull off first turn countering with what usually are very weak wizard heros,,,and not end up risking having the Heros shot off the board,or just flat out charged at the first chance?..sorry but countering usually takes a few turns to become more prevelant in a normal game,not like our 4 player game were we all pretty much started in the faces of the opponents on our flanks.The battlines need to close up a bit so the casters can remain protected and get within that 18" needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Yeah I meant to say Chaos as a whole... I hope you hear back from the SDK site on that because you actually are the first one Ive heard of that has an issue with the points on any of the specific units.Its been around since September I think?..maybe August and I don't recall reading about any unit point value issues,,though there isint any forums just for SDK that I know of either.Peopl have had issues with the pool points system but that's much more vague anyway. If most scenarios start armies at least 24" how do you intend to pull off first turn countering with what usually are very weak wizard heros,,,and not end up risking having the Heros shot off the board,or just flat out charged at the first chance?..sorry but countering usually takes a few turns to become more prevelant in a normal game,not like our 4 player game were we all pretty much started in the faces of the opponents on our flanks.The battlines need to close up a bit so the casters can remain protected and get within that 18" needed. For starters, it's options I can do, not options I plan to do. Small difference. So, for turn 1 if my opponent goes first, I can use The Changeling. Once again, a very underpriced single model wizard in the SDK system. He's a chaos daemon special character which I can deploy in my opponent's deployment zone. The Changeling has a bucket of special rules, but basically, I can deploy him as if he were one of your models and you can't attack/target him unless I do something to blow his cover. If one of your heroes moves within 3", his cover is also blown, so he's very much a sacrifical piece if deployed like this. That said, he can only counter a single spell, and the unbinding attempt will blow his cover, so it's not something I'd use to counter any spell, but only for those spells that really need shutting down. Beyond that, the other option I have is Skaven Gutter Rats. They can't counter a spell per say, but they can start the game deployed at the 9" mark from the enemy. Given that most summoning spells require adequate space from the enemy models and outside 9", I can potentially shut down some, or all, enemy summoning, depending greatly on your deployment. Now, if I go first, my options increase dramatically. Getting models downfield isn't too difficult with the right units/spells. Skaven, in particular, have this method of tunneling their units into the enemy positions where they arrive within 6" of the enemy. The Verminlord Deciever can skitterleap into position, and there are several summon-able units with either the wizard rule, or that unbind as wizards. Another, entirely viable option, is to place a Bloodsecrator inside a skullkeep deployed as close to the enemy as possible, then plant his standard. The skullkeep doubles the range of abilities on a TOTEM model, so his aura projects 30" from the tower, which causes all WIZARDS (friend or foe) to have to re-roll successful casting attempts. Depending on deployment zones, it should be able to cover some, or all of the enemy deployment in a thick anti-spell mist. My Tzeentch daemons are actually pretty fond of this method, as it gives them the ability to shine, as the Lord of Change/Kairos could reliably cast spells despite re-rolling successes. In most cases, setting up my anti-spell options will likely get them killed if my opponent needs spells to function, as they will focus fire away the anti-spell option. In my favor is the turn order, which has spells cast (or failed to cast) before they can move/shoot/charge. Depending on how magic focused my opponent is, being able to shut down one or more spells turn 1 may be a game winning option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Im not surprised that Chaos as a faction has strong offensive and defensive casting options.So yes I suppose especially when we are using sideboards,a chaos player can swap stuff in to shut down another caster if needed. So basically Chaos armies.. the armies with the largest potential to grow their army with Wizards chain summoning more Wizards in the first turn, have the best options to counter others spells early in the game.I don't have a problem with this as it really does make sense in the fluff of things. But for game balancing purposes,what do the other faction armies have in the way of first turn counter summoning options? and I mean im talking about stuff that can be within that 18" needed to counter a spell when the summoner goes first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 I hope you hear back from the SDK site on that because you actually are the first one Ive heard of that has an issue with the points on any of the specific units.Its been around since September I think?..maybe August and I don't recall reading about any unit point value issues,,though there isint any forums just for SDK that I know of either.Peopl have had issues with the pool points system but that's much more vague anyway.. I actually think the base SDK is pretty balanced as a whole. It runs into issues with unusual units/abilities, as the system is based around assigning values to common statistics. Uncommon statistics don't really work. The multiple model wizards is a good example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 We are allowed to use battalions right? I've been doing endless research and my battalions we be kinda nuts at 1500. That tourney event you talked about isn't allowing them at 1500 and I understand why. Eternal Starhost is almost unkillable tanky while Shadowstrike is super glass cannon, pick any unit, t1 alpha strike it, dead. Just think we should rethink battalions. Now if everyone ran one then no big deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Im not surprised that Chaos as a faction has strong offensive and defensive casting options.So yes I suppose especially when we are using sideboards,a chaos player can swap stuff in to shut down another caster if needed. So basically Chaos armies.. the armies with the largest potential to grow their army with Wizards chain summoning more Wizards in the first turn, have the best options to counter others spells early in the game.I don't have a problem with this as it really does make sense in the fluff of things. But for game balancing purposes,what do the other faction armies have in the way of first turn counter summoning options? and I mean im talking about stuff that can be within that 18" needed to counter a spell when the summoner goes first? I did that list, for starters, more general spell canceling. For the opponent going first, huh? I'd have to give them a more thorough reading, but I'm doubting more than a few options exist for each faction. For Chaos, it's pretty limited, though we do have a few options, as mentioned. If you go first, the most obvious option for ORDER or DESTRUCTION would be one of their artillery units. That Trebuchet or the Gobbo Doom Diver should be able to hit enemy wizards just about where ever they are on the table. There is also very likely an equivalent of the Gutter rats for each faction, one that can deploy 9" from the enemy. I think it's DE Shades for ORDER. Doesn't solve anything, but most of the chaos summoning spells require 9" from enemy models, so the closer you deploy, the less space I can summon within. There's also likely a handful of units that increase the difficulty of the opponent to cast spells. There should be some units that teleport/deepstrike/tunnel into position. Remember, that merely being near my models, indirectly prevents summoning. So even a non-wizard can hinder summoning just by finding their way into my deployment zone or otherwise near my wizards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 Bah I'm so indecisive lol skinks or guard? Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted January 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 We are allowed to use battalions right? I've been doing endless research and my battalions we be kinda nuts at 1500. That tourney event you talked about isn't allowing them at 1500 and I understand why. Eternal Starhost is almost unkillable tanky while Shadowstrike is super glass cannon, pick any unit, t1 alpha strike it, dead. Just think we should rethink battalions. Now if everyone ran one then no big deal Yup!,use as many Battalions as you can fit. I would like to see if this works as a foundation for casual play as I would like to try a Dino list for my Seraphon sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 The thunderhost battalion? It's pretty big. Around 1000pts. I've looked into it lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 The GW main site is out of stock on a lot of seraphon heros damn lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 The GW main site is out of stock on a lot of seraphon heros damn lol Not sure how new you are, but GW tends to imply that people need to buy the actual hero model, when instead you can make your own of my heroes by using "extra" models from the other kits. Yeah, the GW heroes are often amazing models, but if cost or availability is an issue, you can just use a normal version of a hero with a decent conversion/paint theme to make them stand out. For example, I can take a normal Pink Horror model and call it a Herald of Tzeentch. So long as I get the weapons about right, and the model looks distinct enough to not be confusing, there isn't a difference. Likewise, you can use toy dinosaurs of the approximate size to represent any number of Seraphon monsters, you just need to convert up the model so it looks right. GW games are very conversion friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Yeah I've converted a ton of dark angles stuff in the past. Space marines are super easy and have a million options. But yeah the Eternity Warden model is great looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 SDK issue I just found. In the book, Skink handlers are units of any amount of models. In my case I want to use just one. SDK has them a minimum of 3 at 24pts. Can I just subtract 2 of them? The points per comes out to 8 each so it's easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 SDK issue I just found. In the book, Skink handlers are units of any amount of models. In my case I want to use just one. SDK has them a minimum of 3 at 24pts. Can I just subtract 2 of them? The points per comes out to 8 each so it's easy Go for it. I've found this one several times in the SDK, not skinks, but other units with incorrect minimum sizes. Though something noteworthy I had missed is that technically unit champions have a higher point cost even if the SDK doesn't note it. This is because any stat increases affects the math. If you look up the "raw data" section of the SDK, you can find the unit costs for champions and such. Technically, the champion in a Pink Horror unit is +1pt for his +1 melee attack of those inferior melee abilities the unit has. I don't think the SDK builder has been fully implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 It hasn't been out too long as far as I know. Only cost difference I ever see is in weapon options Unrelated: what armies are currently represented by the group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Unrelated: what armies are currently represented by the group? Not totally sure, but at least Chaos, Order and Death... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 I meant more specifics like VC, nurgle, skaven, empire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 8, 2016 Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 I meant more specifics like VC, nurgle, skaven, empire... Well...I'm not playing like that anymore....AoS has 4 armies now. But I suppose I could break them down a bit. I'm running at least Chaos Dwarves, Beastmen, Chaos Daemons, with special guests from warriors of chaos and/or Skaven...... RCNjack had Brets and Stormguard the other night. Collin had Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts. Chris had Wood Elves and Stormguard. Destruction is missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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