Tau...

[Lord Hanaur]

14 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I feel it penalizes me for continuing when the game is clearly a lopsided battle I have no chance of winning. Beating a dead horse should not be rewarded.

As for stealing fun, I don't think kicking people while they are down is fun. A close battle is fun, a battle where the opponent has a chance is fun. If the opponent get's to a point where further gameplay isn't fun, they should stop. This is a game, not a real life.

As for the GG ITC league, I've been in the GG league since well before ITC was a thing. I don't really like the ITC's influence on the hobby or on guardian games, but I like my Guardian Games and it is a good space to play. So I accept that players in the league, sometimes, see it as ITC tournament practice. It isn't all the players, but many of them are definitely there for ITC practice.

And I don't know if the ITC rates sportmenship (seems unlikely), but definitely seems like making a lopsided battle "seem" even would be something that a person looking for good sportsmenship ratings would need to learn. Making the game seem sporting for both players seems very key to a sportsmenship rating.

Winning and losing isn't the only goal though in ITC.  In ITC if you're losing you want to lose well.  If you're winning you want to win well.  I don't think "kicking people" is whats happening, because that would require some malicious intent.  it's just both of you maximizing your points.  You'd have to take things personally to get to the "kicking" point of view.

ITC technically doesn't deal with sportsmanship,  But certain tournaments do, even in the ITC.  I attended an ITC Grand Tournament a couple months ago that used 1/3 of the score for sportsmanship.  My own Ambassadorial Grand Tournament also includes it in terms of prize support.  So the ITC leaves that up to the event, which is smart.  its the player meta that determines how much people want it or don't.

[Guest]

Anyway, list stuff.

I've been thinking that the Invulnerable save on the Stormsurge isn't worth it. Drives up the cost on an already expensive model that remains a glass cannon. And it dies really quickly even with a 4++. Could look into a void shield generator, but probably just run them without inv saves.

Every game with crisis suits I conclude, while being useful, they really aren't worth their points. I should probably sell them or convert them into something else.

Oh, and I've been thinking that Strike squads (with unit leader) are leadership 8, but apparently they are 7...so a bit worse. Almost every list has an ethereal, so it hasn't mattered much, but it is something I screwed up on.

And they updated the shipping info on that Stormsurge cover/hatch, should arrive friday.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Winning and losing isn't the only goal though in ITC.  In ITC if you're losing you want to lose well.  If you're winning you want to win well.  I don't think "kicking people" is whats happening, because that would require some malicious intent. 

Kicking people while they are down doesn't require malicious intent. It's "dishonorable" but not innately malicious.

Though if the guy being kicked decides to quit and you accuse them of stealing the fun from the guy doing the kicking, yeah, that's malicious. Asking a person to endure pain for the sole enjoyment of others is definitely malicious.

[Guest]

Another list thing.

I think the Devilfish makes for a really good bunker. It has FLY, so I can place it anywhere. I can hide up to 2x troops out of LoS. And with Sept, it has a 2+ save. And if I go with SMS, it can still contribute to the army.

Tau are so strange. Their fortifications make better dedicated transports. Their dedicated transports make better bunkers...

 

[Lord Hanaur]

15 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Kicking people while they are down doesn't require malicious intent. It's "dishonorable" but not innately malicious.

Though if the guy being kicked decides to quit and you accuse them of stealing the fun from the guy doing the kicking, yeah, that's malicious. Asking a person to endure pain for the sole enjoyment of others is definitely malicious.

So giving the guy "that's down" the chance at more points is...bad?  Okay.  No one "accused him" of anything.

Anywho, sorry that this is a sensitive subject.  i just don't think of losing in the grim terms that you do.  No one likes it but I never felt as if someone were kicking me.  Except for maybe ME kicking me.  but that's not on them.

[Guest]

Just now, Lord Hanaur said:

So giving the guy "that's down" the chance at more points is...bad?  Okay.  No one "accused him" of anything.

Anywho, sorry that this is a sensitive subject.  i just don't think of losing in the grim terms that you do.  No one likes it but I never felt as if someone were kicking me.  Except for maybe ME kicking me.  but that's not on them.

Well, in the actual 40k rules, conceding is instant loss regardless of VP (considered equal to a wipe). I'm not suggesting some sort of advantage with giving up. A loss is a loss.

As for the use of the phrase "kicking them while they are down" I don't mean it feels like I'm being actually kicked. It's an idiom: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/kick+them+when+they're+down

Playing a game where, by just part way into turn 2's shooting phase, I've lost absolutely all units that are able to damage my opponent, and they now entirely outrange me, and can spend the remainder of the game just effortless shooting me to death with no chance of repercussion, yeah that game is over. Continuing is beating a dead horse (another idiom, if wondering). Asking me to continue is asking to kick me while I'm down because my army is helpless at this stage.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

Why steal his fun, right? 

So, I'm tired and hungry. Going to resolve the latter very soon.

I think I was responding to this bit, in hindsight, as if you meant it more intensely than perhaps you did. Sounded to me like you thought him kicking me while I was down should be fun for him, and that I should endure it for his sake.

Not sure why he'd enjoy beating a dead horse and not sure why I'd should enjoy being kicked while I was down. The more I think about, the more I think I overreacted to something you didn't mean. Anyway, tired and hungry. Sorry.

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Kicking people while they are down doesn't require malicious intent. It's "dishonorable" but not innately malicious.

Though if the guy being kicked decides to quit and you accuse them of stealing the fun from the guy doing the kicking, yeah, that's malicious. Asking a person to endure pain for the sole enjoyment of others is definitely malicious.

You are trying to win and do better than 20-80 other people. If you just count a win then what's the difference between the guy who wins handily vs the guy who squeaks out a narrow win? 

[Kelharis]

I like to think if Tau simplistically. Tau have 2 options IMO

1. Gunline

2. Mobile Gunline

We have no real melee, we have no psykers. Basically that leaves movement phase and shooting phase, so they must be embraced and welcomed as if the Ethereals themselves created them for us. 

I know the Orks are famous for more dakka is best, but for Tau, more dakka is life and death.  This is why it's so hard to build a "fun to play against" Tau list. Trying to hit the sweet spot between "I cant hurt your army" and "sorry I tabled you" is not easy.

I'm exploring the stealthy side if Tau with the escalation league with all of the infiltration suits I'm bringing. I hope it provides both fun and challenge to my opponent and me. We will see.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

You are trying to win and do better than 20-80 other people. If you just count a win then what's the difference between the guy who wins handily vs the guy who squeaks out a narrow win? 

One of those life vs game things.

In real life, winning involves as little personal loss as possible. Challenge is bad in real life as it means difficulty. Difficulty equates to sacrifice. Life will always have challenges, but you don't seek them. To seek difficulty is foolhardy. And that is why Adventurers are a subject of the fantasy genre, not real life lifestyle of choice.

In a game, the goal is to be challenged. A player that wins effortlessly ruins the game for both players, as there is no challenge.  And on the same note, a player that presents no challenge to their opponent, also ruins the game.

3 hours ago, Kelharis said:

I like to think if Tau simplistically. Tau have 2 options IMO

1. Gunline

2. Mobile Gunline

We have no real melee, we have no psykers. Basically that leaves movement phase and shooting phase, so they must be embraced and welcomed as if the Ethereals themselves created them for us. 

I know the Orks are famous for more dakka is best, but for Tau, more dakka is life and death.  This is why it's so hard to build a "fun to play against" Tau list. Trying to hit the sweet spot between "I cant hurt your army" and "sorry I tabled you" is not easy.

I'm exploring the stealthy side if Tau with the escalation league with all of the infiltration suits I'm bringing. I hope it provides both fun and challenge to my opponent and me. We will see.

I'm presently leaning gunline, but I keep running into issues regarding long range. Sure, we have long range weapons, but we pay a lot for them (or rather, what we mount them to) and TAU, without Forgeworld, have no long range indirect weapons. Furthermore, the markerlights have only mid range (mid range in 40k is about 19" to 36"), so they don't support our gunlines very well if the enemy sticks to long range themselves. Suggestions?

I have debated switching to Bork'An Sept.

[Ish]

Does the Piranha have Markerlights? A couple of zippy speeders moving into midfield against a closing enemy force (or around the flanks of an enemy gunline) could mark targets for your backfield guns... Barring that, Pathfinders in a Devilfish could do the same.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Ish said:

Does the Piranha have Markerlights? A couple of zippy speeders moving into midfield against a closing enemy force (or around the flanks of an enemy gunline) could mark targets for your backfield guns... Barring that, Pathfinders in a Devilfish could do the same.

Piranhas and Devilfish can't take markers. Those drone mounts only hold gun drones (for some reason). I could disembark marker drones from the devilfish, but they can't shoot while embarked.

Piranha's are a unit I've been considering. They can take 2x seeker missile each, have a small profile and have the same BS as the devilfish. That said, they are pretty expensive for what they bring (70-ish each, with 2x seekers). But with the Devilfish being only 40-ish more points, the Piranhas aren't really worth their cost. I think it might be worth it to own a single one, just for instances where the devilfish was too expensive. The Piranha kit, though, doesn't include any seeker missiles, so they must be acquired elsewhere.

FW has Tetras which are a similar unit in the same slot. They have a "high intencity markerlight" which lands 3x markers per marker hit. No range increase, and they can't move and fire the markers without penalty. 

Though if going FW, most of the FW cash expensive models have BS3+ or BS2+....so they don't really need markerlights.

[Ish]

Ah, yes, it was the Tetra that I was thinking of... Frankly, it shouldn't be too hard to take a Piranha and kit-bash it into something that would make an effective Tetra. The official kit is pretty much a Piranha without wings, a "roof," and a parascope type thingy. You could probably just assemble a Piranha without the wings, cover up the joining point with some platicard panels, and stick a bunch of sensors, antenna, and AWACs dishes on it.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ish said:

Ah, yes, it was the Tetra that I was thinking of... Frankly, it shouldn't be too hard to take a Piranha and kit-bash it into something that would make an effective Tetra. The official kit is pretty much a Piranha without wings, a "roof," and a parascope type thingy. You could probably just assemble a Piranha without the wings, cover up the joining point with some platicard panels, and stick a bunch of sensors, antenna, and AWACs dishes on it.  

Piranhas are $30 each. Tetras come in a pack of 2 from FW for $62. 

The Tetra unit is 2-4 Tertras. So you don't really save anything if buying the Piranhas to make tetras...

[Kelharis]

I've been thinking of picking up some Tetras for the HIM, plus they do move 18" and can "deepstrike" with their "Shadow Strike" arrival option.  It honestly feels to me like the best option for markerlights that are mobile, durable, and able to be placed where I need them when I need them.  That said, I'm trying like crazy to find something workable without markerlight reliance. I keep coming back to special characters for that.  Tau have a heavy reliance on synergy of abilities, that could mean markerlights and seeker missles, or it could mean Longstrike and hammerheads, or Shadowsun and stealth suits.

 

[Guest]

Just now, Kelharis said:

I've been thinking of picking up some Tetras for the HIM, plus they do move 18" and can "deepstrike" with their "Shadow Strike" arrival option.  It honestly feels to me like the best option for markerlights that are mobile, durable, and able to be placed where I need them when I need them.  That said, I'm trying like crazy to find something workable without markerlight reliance. I keep coming back to special characters for that.  Tau have a heavy reliance on synergy of abilities, that could mean markerlights and seeker missles, or it could mean Longstrike and hammerheads, or Shadowsun and stealth suits.

 

Tetras are BS4+. If they "set up" they count as moving, as they would if they moved normally. So Their markers hit on 5+...even if each hit becomes 3, hitting on 5s sucks.

 

[Guest]

So the best solutions are Sept Specific.

-Bork'an adds 6" to rapid and heavy weapon range. So 42" markerlights. 

-Sac'rea's stratagem allows markers to be place on a choosen visible target, and on all targets within 6".

 

Without switching Septs, there are two feasible mobile marker units:

-Markerdrones ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, can move 8", and can easily have their BS improved to reasonable levels (4+) via Drone Controllers.

-Skyray Gunships have 2x BS3+ markers (BS2+ vs targets with FLY) and have 12" of move. They'd still have a penalty while moving, but they'd still be at BS4+ with 2 shots (3+ vs FLY). 

[Kelharis]

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Tetras are BS4+. If they "set up" they count as moving, as they would if they moved normally. So Their markers hit on 5+...even if each hit becomes 3, hitting on 5s sucks.

 

I agree. We have only a few reliable units that don't require other units.

 

 

[Kelharis]

7 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

So the best solutions are Sept Specific.

-Bork'an adds 6" to rapid and heavy weapon range. So 42" markerlights. 

-Sac'rea's stratagem allows markers to be place on a choosen visible target, and on all targets within 6".

 

Without switching Septs, there are two feasible mobile marker units:

-Markerdrones ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons, can move 8", and can easily have their BS improved to reasonable levels (4+) via Drone Controllers.

-Skyray Gunships have 2x BS3+ markers (BS2+ vs targets with FLY) and have 12" of move. They'd still have a penalty while moving, but they'd still be at BS4+ with 2 shots (4+ vs FLY). 

What is your markerlight goal (how many are you aiming to hit with on a unit)? If it's just 1, then Cadre Fireblades are the best choice, 36" range can reach most of the board with 2 CF on the roster.

[Guest]

Oh, FW has a Battlesuit Commander variant (XV84) with a "networked markerlight" special rule where it lands a marker when it hits with it's other shooting. It does have a limit of a single markerlight counter per phase (regardless of shots). Variant also includes a built in target lock. That said, variant only has 2 free slots for other weapons/upgrades, and no iridium armor option. 

Also, since it doesn't actually shoot a markerlight, it doesn't apply for the stratagem that changes 1 marker into d3+1 markers.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Kelharis said:

What is your markerlight goal (how many are you aiming to hit with on a unit)? If it's just 1, then Cadre Fireblades are the best choice, 36" range can reach most of the board with 2 CF on the roster.

My list was specifically refering to mobile markerlights. For stationary ones, yeah, cadre makes my list. The Firesight Marksman too. They're just really slow. 

For ideal marker mobility, the goal is that if I'm deployed on short table edge A and the opponent is on short table edge B, that I can shoot them with my markers, so I can hit their tanks reliably with railguns, Pulse drivers, and disposable missiles AND hit their hordes reliably with deep striking or otherwise fast units.

[Kelharis]

Stealth Suits with Markerdrones, you can deploy them anywhere not in your opponent's deployment zone and more than 12" away from an opponent. I think that's your best option,.

[Guest]

Just now, Kelharis said:

Stealth Suits with Markerdrones, you can deploy them anywhere not in your opponent's deployment zone and more than 12" away from an opponent. I think that's your best option,.

I always forget about them. Yes, those would work. 

[Guest]

I did think up an alternative:

The KX139 TA'UNAR Supremacy Armor has a weapon option called the "Nexus Meteor Missile System." It has 24-120" of range. So it can't fire at targets within 24"

So, basically, my solution is to get the enemy to come to me, by making the act of staying 25+" away really deadly.

Weapon is Macro* 2d6, S10, ap-4, 4 damage

*Macro weapons are a FW thing. Basically, it does double damage to TITANIC and BUILDING models, but can't overwatch.

Oh, and this thing is BS2+, so it doesn't really need markers.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Have several low number of shot anti-tank weapons that deal mortal wounds on wound rolls of 6+, but aside from a single faction specific special character, we have zero options to increase the wound roll.

Okay, so the T'au Sept has a Stratagem called "Focused Fire" which adds +1 to wound. It requires first dealing an unsaved wound to the target, but allows all <Sept> units to gain the +1 to wound against that target. This is also the faction that has the one special character (Longstrike who should be able to stack it for +2 to wound).

And so that's why, at GG the other night, all of the TAU players (other than me) were running the T'au Sept (one also had allied TAU of another faction).