Tyranids are here!

[AbusePuppy]

Part of the problem is that he takes the statement that IB doesn't apply on the Turn that a Unit arrives from Reserves, and then decides that this must be because of timing reasons, rather than realizing that it's simply because the Rule says it doesn't regardless of what order things are resolved in.

 

It does still matter, though- if you bring a Synapse Creature in from reserve before seeing what needs to roll for IB, it could make a very big difference.

 

 

No, his reasoning is not sound. That rule clearly states when synapse has to be checked. It then lists units that are exempt. He's taking that and trying to adjust the timing. That isn't sound at all.

 

When does it occur: At the start of the turn

Who does it affect:  any that are outside of synapse range unless...coming in from reserve.

 

You can't take that "coming in from reserve" and decide that it now changes the timing of synapse check.

 

"The start of the turn" is the same thing as "the start of the movement phase." There is no part of the turn that is before the movement phase. As per the BRB and the FAQ, you absolutely are allowed (on your turn) to pick what order things occur in- in fact, if you want, you can change it from turn to turn. That is explicitly and intentionally how the game works.

[WestRider]

 

Part of the problem is that he takes the statement that IB doesn't apply on the Turn that a Unit arrives from Reserves, and then decides that this must be because of timing reasons, rather than realizing that it's simply because the Rule says it doesn't regardless of what order things are resolved in.

It does still matter, though- if you bring a Synapse Creature in from reserve before seeing what needs to roll for IB, it could make a very big difference.

 

Oh, yeah, that part works. The problem came from when he used that error to deduce that there must be a "Start of Turn" sub-phase before a "Start of Movement Phase" sub-phase.

 

Part of the reason the article bugged me is that he does have a lot of really good stuff in there, but there are some errors right up front that I saw causing at least a few commenters to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, Taak is a good thinker, but his writing is rather rambling and he tends to take very particular rules interpretations and run with them. Wish he woulda put it up for review by one of the other authors so we could've caught that stuff.

[fluger]

I like the general thrust of his argument on why IB isn't as bad as advertised, but I don't agree with his thesis.  

[AscentStudios]

Don't get me wrong: IB is still bad. Even barring the stupidity of the 1-3 results in most cases, not controlling what your troops do is bad. Some apologists focus on the "free" USR but that's just a nice spit-shine on the turd of "your troops are ignoring you." But Taak is right that it doesn't affect as many units as you think it does - which is another reason IB is even more bad (makes you fret about something you don't have to fret about, making it even harder to judge IB's effects on your army - just a waste of time and neurons, and frustrating for no actual result).

 

If I had to write this book and to keep IB, I would have simply made more shades of IB and spread them logically (I mean, instinct is always logical, because it's tied to survival and playing to a critter's strengths...it's just not always beneficial or reliable). IB in this case would only ever do one thing...what the critter defaults to when it's not being lead around by Synapse. Oh, and nothing would ever cannibalize itself, because by that logic the cannibalistic genotype doesn't deserve to survive and evolve...and your troops randomly killing themselves is completely unfun.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate someone's at least trying to look at the reality, and figure out how to work within it. His note about order of operations in the beginning of the Movement phase was, for me, very enlightening.

[fluger]

Ok, so after the Tyranid Vanguard dataslate dropped, I think I have a workable list now that really fits how I would wish Nids would work.  

 

Here's the dataslate:

 

 

DEATHLEAPER’S ASSASSIN BROOD

 

Faction: Tyranids

 

FORMATION

A Deathleaper’s Assassin Brood consists of the following units:

• Deathleaper

• 5 Lictor Broods

FORMATION RESTRICTIONS

The Lictor Broods in this Formation are individual units each consisting of a single model.

 

FORMATION SPECIAL RULES

Preferred Enemy (Character and Independent Character).

 

Paranoia and Ill Discipline: Any enemy unit within 12" of one or more models from this Formation suffers a -1 penalty to their Leadership characteristic.

 

 

So then:

 

Swarmlord:  285

 

2 Tyrant Guard:  100

 

30 Termagants:  120

 

Tervigon:  195

 

5 Genestealers: 130

  Broodlord

 

5 Genestealers: 130

  Broodlord

 

22 Hormagaunts:  110

 

22 Hormagaunts:  110

 

Venomthrope:  45

 

Venomthrope:  45

 

2 Biovores:  80

 

2x Carnifexes:  270

  Adrenal Glands

 

Deathleaper Assassination Brood

Deathleaper:  130

5x Lictors:  250

 

Deathleaper, the Lictors, and the Genestealers are infiltrating and causing leaderships to drop and hopefully pinning things.  They are credible offensive threats against units susceptible to melee and or vehicles.  

 

While they are in distraction mode, the rest of the horde advances at the enemy.  

 

Only issue is dealing with flyers, but even that is manageable with how many bodies will be on the ground.  

[Guest]

Stubborn? Fearless?

 

List seems very specialized around opponent having leadership that can be dropped for pinning or morale checks. Dataslate should be pretty impressive against psyker heavy armies, though.

 

List concerns me that you won't be able to cope with tanks. I suppose 4 MCs is probably enough.

 

Also, how does list cope with flyers?

-Pax

[fluger]

As to flyers, see my last comment.  

 

Stubborn doesn't help for pinning.  Yes, truly fearless armies, this will be a problem, but, as discussed elsewhere, the big issues are going to be found with Eldar and Tau.  Tau are pretty non fearless, and actually have pretty low leadership, forcing riptides to take a pinning check on a 5 (-1 from near a lictor and then -2 for The Horror) is pretty hilarious.  Obviously fearless vehicles are a problem.  

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Not too many fearless armies out there, and if they are psyker associated ability can really mess them up. So I'm not too concerned with fearless.  Horror seems to be one of the best maledictions.  Running 2 min Broodlord/stealer for troop choices can do a lot to get rid of a key player for a turn.  Fliers for hordes list are not that threatening as most fliers are not anti-horde, and you can usually use your footprint to guide the flight path.

[WestRider]

My copy of the Rulebook says that Stubborn applies to Morale and Pinning Tests.

[Guest]

My copy of the Rulebook says that Stubborn applies to Morale and Pinning Tests.

As you say, morale and pinning, though it isn't an immunity, just ignores negative penalties (like the -3 for a psyker and -2 for the horror and the -1 for that dataslate and the -d3 for the deathleaper). Granted, the wording is that the model ignores them, not that they don't affect them, as opposed to last edition where our leadership couldn't be modified.

 

So, for the distinction here, a stubborn model would be affected by the psychic shriek at their lower modified leadership, even if they get to use their normal (and any positive modifiers) for morale and pinning checks.

 

I run DA, like 95% of my army is stubborn or fearless or both. So, in regards to the DA and bugs, the leadership modifiers only apply to my psychic tests and for attacks that damage vs leadership (and other special abilities that specifically apply only to leadership).

-Pax

[fluger]

My copy of the Rulebook says that Stubborn applies to Morale and Pinning Tests.

Oops, 5th ed creeping in then.  Regardless, they are -1 leadership from the lictors. 

 

And, again, I'm not fretting against DA, I see this as an answer to Tau.  

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Ethereal is only threat, but deathleaper can mess that up. Codex says they have to use ethereal. Plus I would rather they use stubborn versus storm of fire.

[fluger]

Yeah, best case scenario is that a riptide is in range of a Ld9 Ethereal and then is -2 from The Horror. If I can leverage a lictor into 12" range he's at a Ld6 check.  If ethereal isn't there or is down to Ld8, and the Riptide is in range of a lictor, it is now taking The Horror at Ld5.  

[ChaosGerbil]

My experience is that gimmick armies are pretty hit and miss, more often miss. Also 385 points is Deathstar levels for a unit cost, but since you are walking you'll probably just end up killing one 100 point squad or simply shot up. 6th edition armies need lots of shooting and your list has very little.

[fluger]

I don't think that the list is gimmicky...

[galahad911]

385 is much closer to half what actual deathstars cost now as well.

[intrizic]

I don't think that the list is gimmicky...

or at least it's as gimmicky as any other Tyranid list, I don't think any list these days, let alone Tyranids, doesn't have a gimmick.  The Tau Buff Commander is a gimmick, it's just an incredibly potent one

[VonVilkee]

385 is much closer to half what actual deathstars cost now as well.

350-400 I consider a credible threat not deathstar.

[fluger]

I also think people aren't factoring in that his sabres now just cause instant death.  There is no roll anymore.  If he gets a wound through, unless they are EW, that thing is dead.  

 

Obviously the issue is that he is on foot, but there should be enough early pressure, and he should be skulking that I don't anticipate losing him early.  

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

My experience is that gimmick armies are pretty hit and miss, more often miss. Also 385 points is Deathstar levels for a unit cost, but since you are walking you'll probably just end up killing one 100 point squad or simply shot up. 6th edition armies need lots of shooting and your list has very little.

This isn't a deathstar unit and instead it is msu gimmick. Many armies will have a hard time dealing with 20+ different units. One of the dataslates is 6 units for 370. 6 individual threats.

 

Tau can only remove so many cover saves a turn, I can tell you that number is less than 6.

 

Nids seems to have great synergies, and work bes msu. In theory in 1500 point list you could max force org, and have 17 units, with data slate you can hit 20. I know a lot of armies can do this with min squads, but nids do this better by handing out shrouded. Gimmicky and won't win probably but a style that is available

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

My experience is that gimmick armies are pretty hit and miss, more often miss. Also 385 points is Deathstar levels for a unit cost, but since you are walking you'll probably just end up killing one 100 point squad or simply shot up. 6th edition armies need lots of shooting and your list has very little.

This isn't a deathstar unit and instead it is msu gimmick. Many armies will have a hard time dealing with 20+ different units. One of the dataslates is 6 units for 370. 6 individual threats.

 

Tau can only remove so many cover saves a turn, I can tell you that number is less than 6.

 

Nids seems to have great synergies, and work bes msu. In theory in 1500 point list you could max force org, and have 17 units, with data slate you can hit 20. I know a lot of armies can do this with min squads, but nids do this better by handing out shrouded. Gimmicky and won't win probably but a style that is available

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, best case scenario is that a riptide is in range of a Ld9 Ethereal and then is -2 from The Horror. If I can leverage a lictor into 12" range he's at a Ld6 check.  If ethereal isn't there or is down to Ld8, and the Riptide is in range of a lictor, it is now taking The Horror at Ld5.  

 

Keep in mind that if you're doing this, the Ethereal is probably gonna call for Stubborn for the whole army, so it's actually just gonna be an unmodified check anyways.

 

 

I don't think that the list is gimmicky...

 

Focusing heavily on a single strategy like that is almost the definition of gimmicky- that isn't to say it's bad, but it definitely is leaning on a single trick. If you come up against Orks, or Daemons, or bikes, or anyone else immune to Pinning/Leadership, you're gonna be struggling.

 

 

I also think people aren't factoring in that his sabres now just cause instant death.  There is no roll anymore.  If he gets a wound through, unless they are EW, that thing is dead.  

 

His Sabres always caused Instant Death all the time, you're thinking of Boneswords. The difference is that before they also forced people to reroll successful invulns, and now they don't.

[Guest]

Oops, 5th ed creeping in then.  Regardless, they are -1 leadership from the lictors. 

 

And, again, I'm not fretting against DA, I see this as an answer to Tau.  

Stubborn was for pinning and morale in 5th too.

-Pax

[fluger]

Keep in mind that if you're doing this, the Ethereal is probably gonna call for Stubborn for the whole army, so it's actually just gonna be an unmodified check anyways.

 

Good point, regardless, dropping the Ethereal's leadership with Deathleaper is going to help.  He also can't be everywhere!  

 

Focusing heavily on a single strategy like that is almost the definition of gimmicky- that isn't to say it's bad, but it definitely is leaning on a single trick.

 

Honestly, I don't think it is focusing SO much on the lictors.  The main advantage of this is that I have lots of little threats that can be in someone's face early and make them suffer.  It gives Nids the early game pressure that I feel they need in order to bring up the rest of the horde.  To me, it's less a gimmick and more a critical component of how an assault-based army needs to function.  

 

 

If you come up against Orks, or Daemons, or bikes, or anyone else immune to Pinning/Leadership, you're gonna be struggling.

 

I really don't think it will be struggling per se, I have lots of bodies that would be happy to fight with and tie down groups of the enemy.  I just wouldn't use Lictors as infiltrators, just deep strikers.  

 

His Sabres always caused Instant Death all the time, you're thinking of Boneswords. The difference is that before they also forced people to reroll successful invulns, and now they don't.

 

Bah!  Fine!  (I knew about the re-roll, but didn't know that it was always instant death before) I still like him for being more survivable than another Hive Tyrant and for being able to give out furious charge and other tasty snacks and having +6" to his Synapse.