Squadron or No?

[HeroZero]

Would you squadron land Speeder Typhoons or not?

How about MM/MM speeders?

[Mr.MoreTanks]

Maybe two with double multi-meltas. And then you should deep strike them. They're just too easy to kill.

[spacewolved]

Depends. If your fa slot is already pretty full then sure. But squads are easier to kill.

[Lord Hanaur]

Ive seen squadrons be very good firebases in ravenwing armies

[TW_Haines]

Im still new to the game but if I was to squad land speeders I would only squad the typhoons. Your looking at a fragile unit so up close in your face will pop fast. But the Typhoon can stay behind your line and fire, so bolters wont shoot it down. To kill it there gona have to use real firepower keeping that off other units.

Thats my2 cents for what its worth.

[Guest]

Which codex are you running from?

Ive seen squadrons be very good firebases in ravenwing armies

DA's are different than the SM ones. DA's has both the FA slot of 1-5 speeders and an option to include a single speeder in the FOC slot that their bikes occupy (separate units, one FOC slot). The bike option is the one that becomes troops, though it is specific that this wouldn't apply to the speeder. So, for DA, the question becomes about if you are willing to spend a FA slot on multiple speeders instead of using free portions of troops slots to field single speeders.

 

SM ones are always FA slots, so squadrons become more about survivability of the unit and less about list construction (unless debating between 1 and more FA slots).

 

As far as the squadron rules go, I like them quite a bit, but they are very difficult with land speeders and they have neither differing armor values on facings nor durability in hull points. Basically, squadrons only benefit the speeders in terms of who dies first in a unit and with save manipulation (Like the front speeder in cover/skyshield and the back one with unobstructed vision). You could get it to work, but likely you'll be paying the price of a more durable vehicle to get one of the speeders to function as.

 

I will note that the DA squadrons of 5, while very expensive, boast a disturbing fire output which can even rival the TAU deathstar units. That said, the squadrons are afraid of regular bolter fire....

 

As for fire output, there is rarely a need for more than 1 speeder if going after vehicles. Double MM is usually enough. You really need to decide if there are targets that need the level of fire output that the speeders feature (and then decide if you can't get this level elsewhere for cheaper).

 

I will note that with the current cost of typhoons for my DA, two typhoons has equal cost to a 5-man lascannon devastator squad. So, basically it comes down to deciding if the mobility is worth the loss of 1 strength and 1 ap.

-Pax

[fluger]

The biggest advantage of running a squadron of typhoons is you can get prescience on them and really hit hard.  

[HeroZero]

Despite me not using the DA codex a unit of 5 typhoons with prescience would be disgusting amounts of firepower.

[Guest]

Despite me not using the DA codex a unit of 5 typhoons with prescience would be disgusting amounts of firepower.

DA psykers get divination too, so don't need to ally for it. That said, what are you shooting that needs 10 TL missiles? Secondary weapons too...

 

The one that tempts me is 5 MM/MM speeders. Unit is a whomping 400pts, but that would melt most targets, even deathstars and most super heavies. Still, you'd need an opponent that regularly brought something to justify 10 MM shots on a single target.

 

And the further nasty bit is if you also include the DA knights, which have non-psychic ranged attacks that can lower a target's toughness. So, you could ID T5 opponents.

-Pax

[fluger]

DA psykers get divination too, so don't need to ally for it. That said, what are you shooting that needs 10 TL missiles? Secondary weapons too...

 

 

Guardsmen blob?  

[WestRider]

Plenty of stuff needs that much firepower to drop it. 10 TL Missiles+5 Heavy Bolters doesn't even drop one full Tactical Squad in 5+ Cover on average. Leaves 8-12 or so left from a 30-strong Gaunt Brood, assuming ~3 Hits per Frag Missile.  Doesn't quite kill a Tärv with FNP and 5+ Cover. Barely averages stripping 3 HP from an AV12 Vehicle with 5+ Cover.

[HeroZero]

Even 10 hits from typhoons isn't enough to remove a lot of the things marines are bad at killing at long range.

[Guest]

Plenty of stuff needs that much firepower to drop it. 10 TL Missiles+5 Heavy Bolters doesn't even drop one full Tactical Squad in 5+ Cover on average. Leaves 8-12 or so left from a 30-strong Gaunt Brood, assuming ~3 Hits per Frag Missile.  Doesn't quite kill a Tärv with FNP and 5+ Cover. Barely averages stripping 3 HP from an AV12 Vehicle with 5+ Cover.

Okay, but if that 375pt unit is really having that much trouble, perhaps you should consider a different route to remove those targets...

 

The speeders aren't very durable, so any intended use needs to capitalize on their rather excessive mobile firepower. If the opponent doesn't need this level of both mobility and firepower, the points are better spent elsewhere.

 

You could try to increase the durability of the speeders, with either the PFG or the Darkshroud. You could also attempt to weaken the target prior to shooting, rad grenades being -1 T and the auspex being -1 cover.

 

The interesting one is if you take both DA and biomancy psyker allies, as you could -1 toughness with the rad grenade and another -1 toughness with enfeeble, which would bring one of those T6 MCs down to krak missile ID.

-Pax

[HeroZero]

I'm more considering DA allies, 5 sniper scouts, prescience mage (librarian), 5 Typhoons,... That could be interesting...

[WestRider]

@Pax: You're missing the point: Things in this game are tougher than you think. There are tons of things that take 15+ Missiles to drop, regardless of the cost of their platform (Typhoons are actually pretty reasonable in this regard), and unless people are really going back to MSU, overkill isn't nearly as much of a problem as you might think.

[Guest]

@Pax: You're missing the point: Things in this game are tougher than you think. There are tons of things that take 15+ Missiles to drop, regardless of the cost of their platform (Typhoons are actually pretty reasonable in this regard), and unless people are really going back to MSU, overkill isn't nearly as much of a problem as you might think.

That's not quite what I meant, though I do see how you would come to the conclusion. I just meant that a unit, like the 5 speeder team, needs an intended role in the army. Overkill, isn't a huge problem, but it does mean waste of firepower that could have been elsewhere. It is true that my lists tend towards MSU, as I have a bit of a bias against expensive units. I also seem to have a bias against missile launchers in general - mine tend to fail pretty badly, at least the SM/DA mounted ones.

 

In regards to typhoons in a big blob, it does boil down to player preference. I don't like the idea 375pts in one units of vehicles, a single unit that has a meager 10 HP and AV 10 on all sides. I do agree that this unit does boast an impressive amount of firepower.

 

I will note, that if I did intend to go this route, a biker librarian with PFG and prescience would be a great solo character to accompany said unit. You could easily bubble them together and use the PFG to grant a 4++ to the speeders. This would certainly mitigate the concerns I have in regards to durability of said ranged deathstar.

-Pax

[WestRider]

I was responding particularly to this bit:

 

 

Okay, but if that 375pt unit is really having that much trouble, perhaps you should consider a different route to remove those targets...

 

My point being that those Units require ~400 Points worth of firepower to remove in one go, no matter the source. Any different firepower Unit that can clear those out quickly is going to cost that much. There is no "different route" that's going to be significantly more efficient.

[Guest]

My point being that those Units require ~400 Points worth of firepower to remove in one go, no matter the source. Any different firepower Unit that can clear those out quickly is going to cost that much. There is no "different route" that's going to be significantly more efficient.

 This is why the role matters.

 

For the same ~400pts I can get 3 squads of ML devs with a total of 12 ML shots. So, if I don't need the mobility, I could go that route. True, harder to prescience, but each squad does have a BS5 model.

 

On the other hand, if mobility is needed, but I don't need S8, I could go with black knights and get a squad of 9 or 3 squads of 3 for 378pts. 18 TL plasma and the ability to assault, and the ability to leave assault, skilled rider and scout, a very impressive unit against all but tanks with high AV rear armor (because they can assault).

 

On yet another hand, if I just need to pop an IG blob or two, That banner of devastation is a pretty nasty one (bolters become 2/4 salvo). 200pts for PA banner squad in pod and as most of my units have bolters, can land where convenient and deal out a large amount of volume fire. In example, two scout squads of 8 and the pod squad can dish out 84 shots, I think, turn 1. That's ~400pts.

 

And again, I could take the Rifle dreadnoughts, which I can take 3 at 360pts. 12 TL AC shots.

 

I don't think the speeders are bad, I'm just concerned. In my experience, most opponents field anti-cover weapons/units that melt my speeders. It is true, that when/if the opponent fails to bring anti-cover, they are amazing, but with 1/5th of a 2k army, I really want something that will certainly survive in most games.

-Pax