X-Wing: pew pew, kerblammers

[smashthedean]

I definitely like the idea of a tournament if we have the interest in it. As for the Falcon, I pretty much completely agree that it is a game-changer, but I guess I've resigned myself to the fact that I either have to make my list more swarmy or just run a Falcon of my own.

 

Also I have someone's 3 bank template that got left there.

[kogre]

I've only had the chance to  try the game on saturday. Joey did an excellent job of getting me hooked.   Would be very interested in more weekend events.

[smashthedean]

I've been thinking about beating Falcons lately and was thinking I'd do a little analysis of the different Imperial ships and how they can deal with them. Basically whatever you're looking at it comes down to needing sustained focused attack dice to down the big bird and while the fragility of Imperial ships does make this a little difficult, there are still some options.

 

Firespray-31

The Falcon's "big ship" counterpart in the Imperial fleet, the Firespray is pretty poorly matched on a ship to ship basis. It has the same attack dice and better defense dice, but lacks the Falcon's higher durability and 360 line of sight (though it does get a rear arc). In my early dealings I'd dismissed the Firespray having a place in the Falcon meta game as even 4 dice a turn with a Heavy Laser Cannon just didn't put out the firepower I needed for the ~40 points I was shelling out. On a closer look though, I'm considering giving the Firespray another shot. Why? Missiles. Specifically, Cluster Missiles. Cluster Missiles are practicially designed to kill Falcons and other ships with low agility and the Firespray is likely going to live long enough to get a lock and an opportunity to fire these bad boys off without any issues. Add in the possibility of a reroll with each missile with Krassis Trelix and you've got a pretty formidable Falcon-fighter at the cost of 4 points for the missiles more than your normal Firespray.

 

Lambda Shuttle

I haven't really figured out Lambdas yet, but on paper a Lambda should have the staying power to help take on a Falcon and it is certainly cost effective. The Lambda's biggest weakness is its lack of manuerability on its dial combined with its front-only firing arc, neither of which the Falcon is particulalry designed to take advantage of. I could see a cheap Lambda with Anti-Pursuit Lasers being good against a Falcon, getting in the way and generally being a pain in the ass while taking shots when it has them and providing support if you spring for one of the named pilots.

 

TIE Advanced

AKA Darth Vader's ship AKA The overpriced TIE Fighter. Yes, these ships are not the best for their points, but they too can equip Cluster Missiles. I personally wouldn't recommend a basic Advanced for the cost, but throwing a set of missiles on Vader is definitely a viable option, especially considering he can focus and fire them on the same turn.

 

TIE Bomber

These look like the pure and simple solution to Falcons with their multiple warhead slots and Jonus' reroll ability, but a lot of people (myself included) shy away from them due to their potential cost and the perceived lack of fun in running a "bomber wing," but I propose an alternate solution: 20 points for a Scimitar bomber with Cluster Missiles. He's 8 points more than a TIE Fighter and packing heat with the missiles. He might not be the sexiest beast on the table after he blows his load, but he can still perform as well as a TIE in combat with only a slightly [big bad swear word]tier dial and is fairly durable in his own right with 6 hull.

 

TIE Fighter

I think everyone at this point has figured out that TIE Swarms can work at taking down Falcons, but they do essentially require building your list around them. If anyone doesn't already know, Howlrunner + 5-6 TIE Fighters put out a lot of dice with rerolls and can generally wreck [big bad swear word] up. That's all I have to say about that.

 

TIE Interceptor

AKA Everyone's favorite ship that doesn't work against Falcons. Yeah, it's true. The Falcon is the counter to the TIE Interceptor, that's pretty much all there is to it. Interceptors dominate the majority of the Rebel ships due to their amazing manueverability and it's really not a big surprise that the Rebels would have an answer to them. If you're running a list that is entirely focused on Interceptors, you're going to have problems against Falcons, it's pretty much as simple as that.

 

Looking at that info, how about some lists to put it into practice:

 

Krassis, Turr, 2x Academy

 

Vader, Turr, Scimitar, Academy

 

Soontir, Turr, 2x Scimitar

 

These all seem more fun to run than a basic TIE Swarm or Bomber wing while still packing in some anti-Falcon elements. What do you guys think?

[Burk]

The meta in your area must be much different then ours.  We play falcons, but they are not overpowered at all.  However our area doesnt take many missiles, we just concentrate fire.  With the falcon, you have two options.  Kill it first, or kill everything else first.  either works, and takes a few rounds to complete with concentrated fire, but honestly, the falcon in strong, but I would much rather face a falcon then the 2 ships it would replace.

[smashthedean]

Well, I have run Han with Chewie as crew and Expert Handling as his only upgrades, but he always works out to be pretty crazy brutal. Just the huge amount of durability combined with Expert Handling letting him move around the battlefield and the 360 line of sight giving him whatever shots he wants always seems to be a winning combination.

[Burk]

chewie being 1 use only and the expert handling really only helps if you are facing ships that need target locks. I dont see the EH being that great considering the base size, it would be very difficult to roll and still not land on asteroids or other ships (assuming you are in close with him, as most do around here).  Get in close, hammer him for a 2-3 turns till dead, then move on.  

 

I dont know, I just dont see 4 shots a turn being worth 52 points when I know I can kill him in 3 turns of concentrated shooting.  meh, each his own I guess. 

 

You are right that interceptors lose some strength vs hes 360, but I personally see wedge and a rookie as being worth the 52 points more than that. :) almost as durable 10 HP vs 15 (with chewie) (but 2 AG vs 1), but putting out double the firepower at range 1 8 AD vs 4AD.  Ill take that anyday.

[smashthedean]

I've actually found the big base to make barrel rolling even more effective because you can hop all over the battlefield, jumping out of firing arcs and putting yourself in for range 1 shots. And aside from swarms, I just haven't felt like a well-piloted Falcon with backup can get focused on for 3 turns in a row. I feel like as an Imperial, I have no problem dealing with 4 ship Rebel lists as I can just keep out of their arcs with my Interceptors while shooting them up, but Falcons have always given me trouble unless I've brought a swarm.

[Burk]

odd.  I'm the opposite.  I find a falcon to be an easy kill.  If it is well piloted you kill everything else then focus on it by itself.  

 

I find the elite rebel lists to be more of a problem...or Ywings.  I despise those things.  Well not just ywings, but anything with an Ion Turret.  Makes me want to puke.  My nightmare is multiple ion lists as they stop me from taking stress on my interceptors.  Faced one the other day.  Got hammered.  

[Munkie]

I run my falcon with Lando, Nien Nunb, Weapons Engineer, and Expert Handling. It's more of a support role which is where I like the falcon. I agree that 4 dice, however reliable, isn't worth the 52 points. But for 51 points I can do the same damage better (choosing which dice to re-roll from target locks is better than Han's special ability). But giving nearby ships free orders can really help them clean up TIE swarms trying to drag the falcon down.

 

The pilot level being slightly lower is a problem only when I'm in fights where the falcon is limping along, but the falcon can trade blows with Soontir Fel and his ilk for 2-3 turns and start picking off everyone higher level than him. But up until that point, the lower pilot level is kind of nice. It means I can set up moves to execute barrel rolls before all the gaps close. It's hard to find a spot to belly flop if every Imperal ship has already moved.

 

Cluster missile spam does sound like a decent counter to the falcon but I think that'll be harder to execute than it looks on paper. I'd use my smaller ships as a screen if I'm facing lots of cluster missiles. It'll be hard to set up a good volley if I've got my fighters chasing waves off their routes. With TIE swarms, the solution is disruption. That's why I always take Y-Wings to back up the falcon. Two 360 degree guns makes a venn diagram of pain for squadrons. You'll get maybe one good volley before ships start straying into overlapping lanes of fire.

 

The falcon is hardly unbeatable but if properly protected, it is a real pain to remove.

[Wiccus]

Yeah its definitely not unbeatable its just incredibly tough to kill and takes a good amount of the game out of the game. Everyone else has to be clever and outmaneuver their opponent where the falcon can go wherever the hell it wants and do whatever the hell it wants without much fear. And yes focusing on it for 2-3 turns is a lot easier said than done especially when its barrel rolling every which way. I honestly am curious what kind of lists that you bring Burk that can so easily defeat a Han or Lando built properly. I personally would much rather see a couple of X-Wings over a falcon due to my preference for interceptors. X Wings have a hell of a tough time escaping a push the limit interceptor. Interceptors don't stand a chance against a tooled up falcon. They die just as easily as an academy pilot.

[Burk]

Han moves last so block him.  Take away his ability to barrel roll by forcing bumps.  Honestly, I think any lists i play would have no problem, but not because of the list, instead due to taking away the rolling.  bump, bump, bump.  then he gets no action, no barrel roll.  yes he can go 3-4 forward to avoid, but that is great, as then he is probably in my arc anyway as the arc gets really wide at range 3 and he is away from you so rolling becomes in-effective.  I would also try to force the engagement in the area with the highest concentration of asteroids (yes asteroid placement is a vital portion of the game.  Dont just throw them out there, make it dicey in an area if you are more maneuverable).  By forcing the asteroids into the picture the ability to roll is further reduced as remember you cannot roll/boost if the final location would bump another ship or land on an asteroid.  

 

Dont get me wrong, it is a nice set of abilities, but if you feel you cannot kill him in 2-3 turns of concentrated shooting, then ignore him and kill everything else, then when you start "crossing your ships"  you can cover multiple fire arcs so the thing cant get away from at least 1-2 shots per turn.  with 1 evade dice (and him using his action to roll), i will be getting hits with each shot.

[intrizic]

Han moves last so block him.  Take away his ability to barrel roll by forcing bumps.  Honestly, I think any lists i play would have no problem, but not because of the list, instead due to taking away the rolling.  bump, bump, bump.  then he gets no action, no barrel roll.  yes he can go 3-4 forward to avoid, but that is great, as then he is probably in my arc anyway as the arc gets really wide at range 3 and he is away from you so rolling becomes in-effective.  I would also try to force the engagement in the area with the highest concentration of asteroids (yes asteroid placement is a vital portion of the game.  Dont just throw them out there, make it dicey in an area if you are more maneuverable).  By forcing the asteroids into the picture the ability to roll is further reduced as remember you cannot roll/boost if the final location would bump another ship or land on an asteroid.  

 

Dont get me wrong, it is a nice set of abilities, but if you feel you cannot kill him in 2-3 turns of concentrated shooting, then ignore him and kill everything else, then when you start "crossing your ships"  you can cover multiple fire arcs so the thing cant get away from at least 1-2 shots per turn.  with 1 evade dice (and him using his action to roll), i will be getting hits with each shot.

The force is strong with this one...

[Munkie]

Han moves last so block him.  Take away his ability to barrel roll by forcing bumps.  Honestly, I think any lists i play would have no problem, but not because of the list, instead due to taking away the rolling.  bump, bump, bump.  then he gets no action, no barrel roll.  yes he can go 3-4 forward to avoid, but that is great, as then he is probably in my arc anyway as the arc gets really wide at range 3 and he is away from you so rolling becomes in-effective.  I would also try to force the engagement in the area with the highest concentration of asteroids (yes asteroid placement is a vital portion of the game.  Dont just throw them out there, make it dicey in an area if you are more maneuverable).  By forcing the asteroids into the picture the ability to roll is further reduced as remember you cannot roll/boost if the final location would bump another ship or land on an asteroid.  

 

Dont get me wrong, it is a nice set of abilities, but if you feel you cannot kill him in 2-3 turns of concentrated shooting, then ignore him and kill everything else, then when you start "crossing your ships"  you can cover multiple fire arcs so the thing cant get away from at least 1-2 shots per turn.  with 1 evade dice (and him using his action to roll), i will be getting hits with each shot.

 

1. Blocking is definitely a good way to mitigate the falcon (although way less so if Dutch is nearby as he'll have target lock anyway), but barrel rolling isn't really necessary, just a little som'm som'm.

 

2. Asteroids are handy and definitely have their own strategy in placements, but it's a lot harder to force the falcon into asteroids than it is to force ships without turrets. Everyone knows you don't take the falcon into an asteroid field. They're lousy with mynocks!

 

3. "Will be getting hits" is a bit of an exaggeration. You'll have a statistical advantage, but with blanks being an option you can't really count on anything. Otherwise, if he's got nowhere to barrel roll, he can also just do an evade. And keep in mind if you do have multiple ships close enough to hit reliably, you can count on one of them dying before they get to shoot. You really have to have at least 3 TIEs shooting at it from range 2 or closer to reliably ding even a couple shields. That's not hard to do for one turn, but it becomes extremely hard to do consistently.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, those are the best ways to handle the falcon short of tailoring a list for it. I just think you'll have to manage at least 2 of those 3 methods consistently to really be able to get a handle on it. If that's happening, I don't think the Rebel player is using their other ships effectively. As for the "ignore it" approach, that can certainly be viable too, but a Falcon is a scary thing to leave unchecked. It can start assassinating those lynch pin models while the remaining ships try to shake pursuers.

 

Anyway, we seem to have had different experiences in our separate metas. Clearly, galaxies need to collide in a specatacle of space lasers and cargo shorts.

[Burk]

I guess we just disagree.  It is no better at killing ships than any other out there (sans ties and a-wings).  I dont disagree it is a good ship, but I dont see how adding a stress inducing action and a 1 use item makes it better (and to get the evade, you need to add another point, so now you are at 53.....thats alot of points..  I just played one and it was ignored completely unless there was nothing else to shoot at.  

 

Falcons are good, but the more points you add to it, the diminishing returns IMHO.  

 

We will have to settle this on the field.

[smashthedean]

Also, with Han, don't forget he gets the reroll if he gets a bad to-hit roll the first time around. Making him bump into things doesn't really do much then. Also my preferred list with the Falcon is a B and a Y so they're pretty tough to wear down in their own right while potentially causing some ionizing hits with the Y to mess up formations trying to give the Falcon guff.

 

I think our Imperial meta is very focused on TIE Interceptors thanks to Joey and me loving them so much, but I agree though that settling it in the field is the way to go. Did I hear something about the OFCC having an on the side X-Wing tournament or was that last year or something else entirely?

[Burk]

i dont disagree he is good, My issue is that talk that him with the card combo you list is too powerful.  I dont see that is being a good addition.  I dont think you could add anything to him that would stop a determined player from killing him in 2-3 rounds of concentration.

 

 I find the best adds for him is swarm tactics and maybe the MF upgrade, so a solid 49 points.  But even that is getting into the "is it worth that many points" for me.

[smashthedean]

Well, I think Expert Handling has to be seen in action to be believed, but Chewbacca is a guaranteed 2-3 hit points extra (3 if you save it until you get a Direct Hit crit) for only 4 points. I'd say it's a pretty good grab.

 

I really really wish that there was a Lambda pilot that could take Elite Pilot Skills as a barrel rolling Shuttle would be crazy effective.

[Burk]

you can get boost on the Lambda.  It is a modification.  Engine upgrade.  4 points.

 

I have seen EH in action and I think it is better on small ships that can really utilize it.  It is hard enough to land a barrel roll normally at range 1, but the big ship....not seeing it.

[Raak]

just played my first few real matches of X wing. One game with the box set and another with some additions on both sides. Pretty sure we missed a lot but it was great fun.

[smashthedean]

So I thought of a horrible thing to do with Lambdas. If you start the match out with 3 Lambdas with Advanced Sensors and Heavy Laser Cannons, you can position them to just take 1 bank or forward maneuvers that ram them into each other and essentially work as a stop maneuver minus the stress. With Advanced Sensors in the mix they're still getting their actions and are pretty much acting as a stationary block in the corner of the board with all advances covered and overlapping fields of fire.

 

This doesn't sound like any fun to play or play against and I don't even know how effective it would be, but it is possible.

[Burk]

you still have to move up an equivalent of 2 forward each turn after you start the "stop" fest as the 2nd one in line jumps the first, etc as if you take a red maneuver when you have a stress, you OP gets to choose your maneuver.  

 

Evil_Bryan came up with an idea that we doved the "wagon train"  4 Lambda's with APL.  just start circling them in the center of the board and they one behind covers the back of the one in front, etc.  could be fun to try, and it is  alot of HP to get through......

[smashthedean]

Nope, if you start off with the correct facing you can just sit there the whole game like a dick. Here's a rough mockup:

[Burk]

ok, I get it.   But then you have several blind spots that you could be shot from and have no shots back.  I cant remember if the FAQ said you had to be completely in the deployment zone or not....if you have to be (which I am thinking you dont) then you cant do that set up.

[smashthedean]

The big ship rule is that one corner of your base has to be touching the back edge to deploy at an angle.

[Burk]

good.  thanks, I thought you could...

lots of holes to run towards that are not easily covered