Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 So I am not playing my Empire yet but after reading a couple of articles an idea hit me. Handgunners are less than attractive but are good at handing light chaff. It would cost 90 points but you could set them up in the back field protecting the Warmachines my opponent will be gunning for. Positioned right they can cover the whole backfield with the right angle. Obviously this will not be perfect but will stop fast cav from having a free for all on my Warmachines. I will get at least 2 shoots before they engage the Handgunners and that will most likely lower their effectiveness by about half if not more. (Assuming it is a standard 5 man fast cav unit with a 4+ AS and no Ward.) Worth trying or a waste of points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I would suggest archers. Handgunners are hit and miss. With archers, you can skirmish and move and shoot. In my experience with Empire, if the handgunners don't get it done and get charged, they normally lose and run away. However, if they are taken as a detachment and placed to protect warmachines that way, they get steadfast off the parent unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well if we go by normal use of units, yes Archers are better but only becuase they are Skirmishers. But this is not the normal use of a unit. It is a static two ranks of 5 men that do not move. Archers only get stubborn if they are in forests. So unless there is a forest right next to your Warmachines they will break faster than the Handgunners who they will have to kill 5 men before thet loss steadfast. (That is assuming you kill at least 1 rider to remove their last rank.) Now the handgunners bs is the same, cuases +1 ST and has AP shots. Handgun's biggest weakness is the Move or Fire which doesn't matter to a static unit. It doesnt move, it is a deterent not an offensive unit. The idea is of you run heavy on one flank the other will be exposed to Fast Cav, which we all experience, so if you place this unit in a way that they can not avoid line of fire they will most likely not try to assualt your Warmachines that way. Archers are good as an agile unit for moving on a unit's flank and firing. Doing it from the woods makes it a bad choice for most units to deal with without throwing a lot of resources at it. This responsibility of babysitting is a static job which Archers would be bad at. They will get no steadfast in the open ground. So if my theory is correct my opponent can not just take a 100 point unit and wipe out all my Warmachines in a domino effect. They would be wiped out before then, or made ineffective requiring my opponent to spend more resources to get the job done, exposing them to my Warmachines which is what I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Almost forgot, if the unit does break or is destroyed becuase of the angle of the unit your opponent will run off the board unless he restrains, meaning no free charge into your Warmachine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRuger Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 take a hellblaster... it takes care of chaff/war machine hunters just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Murphy I think he's referring to the Clown card of regiments passing steadfast to detachments. It's why 5 man archer units are taken on Halberd hordes. Its pretty common to run crossbows at angles to save machines. That extra range really matters. Check out the griffon formation tactica for how to keep cannons safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thanks for the advice HeroZero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Israel Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I believe the best way to protect war machines is to leave them in the case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Run units of 10 handgunners, they aren't worth the points to attempt to protect war machines. They don't hit often and only have 24" range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brick Bungalow Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'd go with the skirmishers. Neither unit will be truly reliable to destroy incoming chargers before the connect but the archers will be far more effective at blocking up the avenues of approach. Better yet, protect warmachines with warmachines. Two is usually enough to cover the length of the players table edge. Remember your cannons can fire grapeshot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Pro Tip: take 5 man units of Knights. Longer charge range to threaten those flippin' harpies, can redirect if needed and 1+ armor saves are going to help them stick around longer. Just hope you pass the Ld test. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBeadle Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Thats 120pts, with a musician, which seems standard for cav. Do you position them in the center of your artillery so they can respond to either side that the opponent will move on? What about fliers such as great eagles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Yeah, that's hard to say based on the board and your field of vision. I tend to take two cannons and spread them out. Each covers a somewhat diagonal arc across the board (if possible) with the knights a little forward and off to the side. Most fliers will try to come straight on at the warmachine so you can react with the knights to intercept, even if its shuffling sideways to prevent a turn 2 charge (and blocking LOS to the cannon). If you're fielding an Engineer (recommended with a Helblaster), you can also give him a Ruby Ring. A little fireball action does wonders against skirmishing warmachine hunters since there's no minus to hit with shooting. Another ding against crossbows / handgunners. Don't worry too much about keeping them alive the whole game. Prioritize your targets and take down as much as you can in the first half. Even if they keep big meanies hiding behind cover, they're doing a good job. I actually find that they kinda sit around in the later turns because the pickings are slim. Maybe finishing off a fleeing model or two just for the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonRuger Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I like a unit of Pistoliers too if you want them to protect your Warmachines you can or if your opponent doesn't have warmachine hunters then they are still very useful in many other roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I like a unit of Pistoliers too if you want them to protect your Warmachines you can or if your opponent doesn't have warmachine hunters then they are still very useful in many other roles.I have to say being a Dark Elf and O&G player (Fastest Fast Cavs in the game.) caughting Fast Cav with a charge is not likely going to happen. My Dark Riders would win CR with better armor and attacks so I wouldn't use Pistoliers an answer to Fast Cav. Best way to get fast cav is to shoot them or deter them from wanting to engage. In the game of controling charges Fast Cav is the Big Dog King. And you want the deterent in place before the Fast Cav moves, so James I would most likely pick one side that is your weak flank and stick to it. In other words the Knights look like a good answer, but I do not expect them to catching any Fast Cav in a charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Pistoliers should never be in combat ever. 5 inches from opponents is where they live. 10 str 4 ap shots makes a mess of most fast cav. The best protection for a cannon? Surround it with the hull of a steam tank. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Pistoliers should never be in combat ever. 5 inches from opponents is where they live. 10 str 4 ap shots makes a mess of most fast cav. The best protection for a cannon? Surround it with the hull of a steam tank. Isn't the Steam Tank best used in the front lines grinding away the horde units? Baby sitting seems like a waste of points, even if your warmachines survive the whole game Agree with pistoleiers' comment. They are about as useful at baby sitting as the Handgunners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Pistoliers beat dark riders in a shoot out. When I played Empire I would just take a cannon and place it on the opposite side of my main deployment. That way, whatever unit they sent towards it was usually out of the game for a turn or 2 before I had to worry about it. You want to know what is the best war machine protector for Empire: CAPTAIN ON A PEGASUS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Captasus should be off hunting enemy warmachines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I am actually finding these thoughts on Rear Guard very interesting. Looks like everyone has their own ideas and no set rule for how it should look. What I heard on another forum from a well thought out article that was posted in Druchii and the Empire forums was mainly this. Melee units get the job done. Buffing models make the melee units better. Warmachines takes out Buffing models. Fast Cav takes out Warmachines and Shooting takes out Fast Cav. Very quickly summed up there but you get the general idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swan-of-War Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 That's a good summary Murphy's Lawyer, but I'd deviate a little and say that Warmachines take out Monsters, Chariots and others of their ilk (along with Buffing models). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 That's a good summary Murphy's Lawyer, but I'd deviate a little and say that Warmachines take out Monsters, Chariots and others of their ilk (along with Buffing models).True true. This whole rear guard concept is new for me becuase with O&G and DE if I lose my warmachines, oh well, I paid 2 nickles for them. Eric did give me a good lesson on some good rear guard ideas tonight so now I see what MexicanNinja was saying. I think a couple uints of 5 Knights might be my reserve/rear guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBeadle Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Seems a waste. I mean not game wise, but meta. You go off and fight the enemy, we will stay here with our heavy plate armor and massive war mounts, the pinnacle of mideval warfare, and look pretty while protecting the siege equipment. Meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted February 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Seems a waste. I mean not game wise, but meta. You go off and fight the enemy, we will stay here with our heavy plate armor and massive war mounts, the pinnacle of mideval warfare, and look pretty while protecting the siege equipment. Meh.Ah, well you have to know how it would be used and you may change our mind. First Empire has some of the best Warmachines in the game, Doom Diver being the best IMO, but Empire Warmachines don't come as cheap as other Warmachines do. So it is protecting an investment. Also the Rear Guard would also be reserves that you can wait till turn three to see what his Chaff is doing before sending the Knights to where they are needed to clean up or support the battle. Having them on the flank would put your opponent in a bad position becuase if he charges your army head on the knights will be able to come in on their flanks setting up a possible domino effect. Also Knight are core and come cheap compaired to warmachines for their effectiveness and are very mobile. Mind you this is not something you do for one cannon but for a Cannon or two with Engineer and Hellblaster you can see the points adding up fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Sure. Empire is a total counter punch army. 3 units of 5 knights, 2 units of 5 pistoliers is where I feel comfortable for mounted chaff. 2 units of 5 archers are a must have too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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