MexicanNinja Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 I've been reading the Dwarf book and have found myself wanting to start a Dwarf army soon. I am thinking about starting to slowly build up my 2.5k army (I'm still all about the Dark Elves) to have something different to play here and there. Here is the list I am building: Lord w/great weapon, shield bearers, master rune of smiting, rune of stone, 3 runes of warding Thane w/BSB, great weapon, oath stone, rune of striking, master run of gromil, 2 runes of warding Master Engineer Runesmith w/rune of spellbreaking Runesmith w/2 runes of spellbreaking 20 Longbeards w/musician, standard, rune of slowness, great weapons 20 Long beards w/musician, standard, great weapons 30 Iron Breakers w/full command, rune of stoicism 5 Slayers Cannon w/master rune of immolation, rune of forging Grudge Thrower w/rune of penetrating, rune of accuracy, rune of forging Organ Gun w/rune of forging Organ Gun w/rune of forging, rune of burning This is a pretty straight forward list. I shoot at you while you advance and then slam the Iron Breakers in when I need to keep a unit in place. One runesmith joins the iron breakers and one will join a unit of longbeards. The lord and thane both join the iron breakers. Since the shield bearers take up to models in the unit, I can keep the thane and runesmith in the second rank. The thane allows me to parry on flanks and the rear of the unit (the unit special rule is 5+ parry save). The runesmith also adds AP for the unit (not that great for the unit but with the lord having 4 S6 attacks and cause D6 wounds each if they wound means that the AS is going to be at -4. The master engineer is to give either the cannon or grudge thrower hard cover and to sit near an organ gun so that I can use BS4 for hte shots, re-roll an artillery dice as well as benefit from re-rolling a misfire from the rune of forging. In the off chance of when I roll 2 misfires, I can re-roll both of them (once for the master engineer and once for the rune). The runesmiths are scroll caddies, add AP to two units, and one of the runesmiths gets rid of the spell he dispells with the rune on a 4+. The slayers are there to protect my cannon and or grudge thrower, if I deploy them away from the rest of the army. The war machines are there to obviously soften up enemy units before the grind happens. All of them can re-roll the artillery die, if a misfire is rolled. If I am facing a list with a strong unit with regeneration then I can open up with the organ gun with flaming attacks and let the rest wreck face. Organ guns are amazing, 30" range S5 AP hits! At any rate, this is going to be the final result of my list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Your characters have some illegal gear. Great weapons can't be rune-inscribed so you'll have to decide one or the other. In lighter news, the Rune of Forging doesn't specify that you only re-roll one artillery die. It says you can re-roll the dice "whenever a misfire is rolled" so you don't actually need the Engineer for that. He'll still help with his BS and entrenching and whatnot but I don't think he's worth his points, considering he's kind of redundant to what you can already do with engineering runes. At any rate, looks like a pretty solid list on paper (considering I haven't actually had a chance to play with the new book). I keep trying how to figure out how to fit Ironbreakers into a list. Hammerers are just so killy that they are hard to refuse, but fitting both into one list leaves too few points for war machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Your characters have some illegal gear. Great weapons can't be rune-inscribed so you'll have to decide one or the other. In lighter news, the Rune of Forging doesn't specify that you only re-roll one artillery die. It says you can re-roll the dice "whenever a misfire is rolled" so you don't actually need the Engineer for that. He'll still help with his BS and entrenching and whatnot but I don't think he's worth his points, considering he's kind of redundant to what you can already do with engineering runes. At any rate, looks like a pretty solid list on paper (considering I haven't actually had a chance to play with the new book). I keep trying how to figure out how to fit Ironbreakers into a list. Hammerers are just so killy that they are hard to refuse, but fitting both into one list leaves too few points for war machines. Yup, I missed the top section that says apply them to the hand weapon. Time to rethink the weapon build. I am going with the engineer because I can still re-roll a roll of 2 or 4 to try to get more shots. I went with iron breakers over hammers for survivability. I can use the longbeards to counter charge. It will be extremely hard to shift stubborn 10 with a 3+/5+ parry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophecy Posted February 25, 2014 Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 The Hammerers are indeed killy but I kinda like this list at it's core. Since you are taking runes on the BSB and aren't shooting for the Magic Rune banner the Lord just isn't worth it. I would drop him and pick up 2 Gyro's.Long beards should have shields so I would go with that and then take the other LB unit and turn them into basic warriors with GW's as you aren't using another Magic banner as part of the plan. You could also drop the slayers and just get some quarrelers with GW's. Without the Lord and slayers you get a solid unit and some mobility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted February 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2014 Well, like I stated in my original post. That's the list I'm building. The lord most definately stays. I don't want or need shields on my long beards, as they are the counter charging units for the iron breakers, I don't want warriors because they have crap stats, and I don't want quarrelers because they are only BS3. Thanks for the advice, but I'm not looking for mobility at all. I also have a solid unit in the 30 iron breakers. This army isn't going to be rushing forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2014 So, I'm in the process of re-working my list. I've done some more examination of the book and have a better understanding on how the lord should work. I also have found some nice combos here and there. In the end, I think I am going to just make my lord a hold the grounds type guy. Not really needed for damage output but rather to hold the "blender" lords in place for frustration with for my opponent. Iron drakes....I need to find a spot for these guys. The more I read about them the more I want a unit of the guys. However, these will have to wait for a specific theme resolved around the engineer special character. So, this will be an "addition to" type army. The 1 combo I have fallen MADLY in love with is Bugman in the second rank of a unit with your T7 W6 lord. Why, you may ask? He is the only model in the game with the ability to give multiple wounds back to a singel character! He's purely here to be a medic. It's already going to be hard as nails to take down a lord kitted for survivability. Now, add in the ability to give wounds back to your general every turn and you can stick out that grind with blender lords much easier now. I will also say, I think I may go less war machines and more vanguard runes. Imagine setting up dwarfs at the max deployment allowed and then follow that up with a 12" move. You're set up for turn 2 charges and with the correct banner combos you can really go to town with some things. Heck you could trick out 3 cheap thanes to have breath weapon attacks for countering regen units or small bunkers for characters. This is hands down my second favorite 8th ed book. Some of the options in this book also point to potential changes to 9th. Which rules may that be you say? Look at the hammerers and what special rule they have and then look at the option for them to take a shield. Hopefully, you'll get to chose which weapon you want to use in close combat in 9th like you were able to in 7th. Now you have 2 attack Stubborn units with the ability to have great weapons for damage output or surviability with an armour save and a parry save. Wow, just wow, this book offers some great things. There are some drawbacks; although, these mainly come with the huge nerf the anvil took. There are a few things I don't see happening. I don't see alot of the triple runes being used (most of the third tier abilities just aren't worth the points spent to get them) and slayer characters. If you had a way to get slayers in as a core choice, with say the special-character slayer, that would be pretty cool. However, I just don't see slayers taken over the other options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Irondrakes are cool but in my extensive experience (2 battles), they tend to just chase enemies out of their threat range, rather than do much actual damage. I won't complain with flanking elements deciding not to because they didn't want to get close. They seem especially good if you can vanguard a decent size block. I totally agree with your view of the runic combos. I've always just run dwarf lords with great weapons and decked them out for survivability. Most blender characters don't want to be taking 4 str 6 hits turn after turn. They tend to lose eventually. But I haven't seen any offense-based dwarf lords that I really like with the new book. The only way to get more than str 4 is by using 2 runes to get +1 str and AP (redundant with runesmiths), or take Rune of Might and double your str against T5+ models. But against T4 models, he doesn't do anything. I don't like it. I think a 6 point great weapon will do more damage consistently than many runic combos, and is certainly the best value. I don't really care about the Anvil nerf. I knew it was going to be nerfed, I just didn't expect them to go that overboard. Oh well, I never really used it much anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Irondrakes are cool but in my extensive experience (2 battles), they tend to just chase enemies out of their threat range, rather than do much actual damage. I won't complain with flanking elements deciding not to because they didn't want to get close. They seem especially good if you can vanguard a decent size block. I totally agree with your view of the runic combos. I've always just run dwarf lords with great weapons and decked them out for survivability. Most blender characters don't want to be taking 4 str 6 hits turn after turn. They tend to lose eventually. But I haven't seen any offense-based dwarf lords that I really like with the new book. The only way to get more than str 4 is by using 2 runes to get +1 str and AP (redundant with runesmiths), or take Rune of Might and double your str against T5+ models. But against T4 models, he doesn't do anything. I don't like it. I think a 6 point great weapon will do more damage consistently than many runic combos, and is certainly the best value. I don't really care about the Anvil nerf. I knew it was going to be nerfed, I just didn't expect them to go that overboard. Oh well, I never really used it much anyway. Take a unit of 14 Irondrakes and stick them in 2 ranks somewhere with the rune of slowness. They can just move and shoot. Actually, a parry rune on that lord is amazing. Most things hit on 5's and wound on 6's. Stick him in some hammerers and they dish out damage while he shuts down the blenders. The bad part of the anvil is that there is no bonus to cast the spells. Most armies will have a +4 to dispel and your opponent should know which 1 of the 3 spells to shut down. If you don't IF the spell you need it's more than likely getting shut down. They should have made that thing a rare choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Take a unit of 14 Irondrakes and stick them in 2 ranks somewhere with the rune of slowness. They can just move and shoot. Actually, a parry rune on that lord is amazing. Most things hit on 5's and wound on 6's. Stick him in some hammerers and they dish out damage while he shuts down the blenders. The bad part of the anvil is that there is no bonus to cast the spells. Most armies will have a +4 to dispel and your opponent should know which 1 of the 3 spells to shut down. If you don't IF the spell you need it's more than likely getting shut down. They should have made that thing a rare choice. Yeah I definitely want to try a more substantial unit of drakes, but that would require some serious tweaking with what I'm currently running. But what I've seen is mostly people just run away from them. The mobile elements on the flank have mostly relocated instead of facing their wrath. Yeah, parry is definitely good but probably overkill. I had my Lord with T6, 5 wounds, and a 1+/5++ originally. I think that's plenty tough. If you give him Parry, then you have a weapon that does negligible damage. So then you're tempted to spend even more points to make his weapon worth a damn. Otherwise he'll just get ground down by pretty much anything. I'd rather be able to dish it out and keep him cheap. Currently, it's moot for me because the Ld 10 Thane has made a fine general for me so far. Oh, I know why why the anvil sucks, I'm just not bothered by it. It was a crutch in the last book so I avoided it unless I was doing an all combat army. It's no hair off my beard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I am partial to the Runed up Lord. My current favorite build is: Lord w/ Shieldbearers 185MR Snorri, Fury, Might 75Shield w/ Stone, Preservation 33MR Passage, Furnace 15 5 strength 5 or 5 strength 10 attacks depending on the mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Seriously the correct answer is a dwarf with GW, and maybe RoStone on a shield Much like magic toys, you quickly spend far too much making a character that won't do as much as the equivalent points in dudes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I like having something in a unit that can deal with ethereal units. Your "correct answer" is [big bad swear word]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I've literally never been that overly concerned about ethereals in any army. And don't tunic warmachines grant magic boom booms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I've literally never seen you spout any original idea. I've also never seen you say anything other than your idea was the best idea. I personally think most of your ideas are just re-vomited jargon from the internet for the most part. Yes, the war machines can become magical. Guess what that means. You now have to waste your war machines on ethereal units. Ya, a GW lord is great. He has 4 strength 6 attacks. Guess what else has 4 strength 6 attacks. 2 Hammerers. My problem with you Hero, is not that you may be right. It's that there is no right, it's all opinion and conjecture. That and every time you type you come across as a real prick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Seriously the correct answer is a dwarf with GW, and maybe RoStone on a shield Much like magic toys, you quickly spend far too much making a character that won't do as much as the equivalent points in dudes. I seriously have to disagree on this one. I could get a T7, W6, -1 to hit, 1+/5+ lord to shut down a lot of the blender lord builds. I would like to see how often he drop in 1 or 2 rounds of combat. Also, in a non comped event, I could stick bugman in the second rank and heal his ass D3 wounds each turn. This build isn't about killing. It's about points denial. You can deny his points and ensure most things he gets into combat with don't earn their points back either. This is a tough build to crack, IMO. Most ethereals will lost just to combat res to most dwarf units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Wow that got overly personal quick... @Mexicanninja I completely agree that is a disgustingly survivable build, but it costs a fortune. I've always had better results with more guys. I'm not much for putting too much on survival either. I've had terrible results on survival as a points denial strategy. I end up holding on to the points there but lose points elsewhere when my stuff gets avoided. Maybe its me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Munkie, don't worry. I'm not using them in my 2.5k list either. I'll take 2 organ guns over them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Wow that got overly personal quick... I wasn't trying to make it personal. My apologizes if I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Wow rapid posting fail on my part. Must use more quotes. You're fine MexicanNinja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Wow that got overly personal quick... @Mexicanninja I completely agree that is a disgustingly survivable build, but it costs a fortune. I've always had better results with more guys. I'm not much for putting too much on survival either. I've had terrible results on survival as a points denial strategy. I end up holding on to the points there but lose points elsewhere when my stuff gets avoided. Maybe its me. Fair enough, my strat is based around a vanguard move with 25-40 hammerers (still playing with points). Your enemy can't hide from that vanguard move to his grill before the game starts. If you add the rune of slowness now it's a gamble for them to charge as well.- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Just ball parking it here but wouldnt that unit be rather unsupported until later rounds? I agree there wouldnt be much that I would happily charge a big super killy unit of hammers plus lord except maybe with a huge zombie type bus to tarpit it as long as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 You can vanguard longbeards as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Seems like to.play that you'd need to bring at least 3 vanguarding blocks. Just for flank protection I'd think. Interesting strategy though. Not my personal style but I can see merit in it. I'm more of a dudespam + warmachines+copters type of guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Munkie, don't worry. I'm not using them in my 2.5k list either. I'll take 2 organ guns over them. Haha! Well I don't think I'd "worry" about it, that's just my preference. Thanes are 1/2 the cost of Lords and have really some really awesome baseline stats for a hero choice. Ld 10 and T5 are great places to start for making a survivable, efficient, general. IMO, the ONLY advantage Lords have is access to shieldbearers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Seems like to.play that you'd need to bring at least 3 vanguarding blocks. Just for flank protection I'd think. Interesting strategy though. Not my personal style but I can see merit in it. I'm more of a dudespam + warmachines+copters type of guy. Who cares if you get flanked, you're stubborn 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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