Help with a Wood Elf list

[JMGraham]

So, I'll be playing some Fantasy after a long hiatus, and am planning on trying my Wood Elves. I also have Warriors of Chaos, Daemon, and Empire armies, but while the Warriors have typically been my main army in the past, I've gotten bored with them now. I reckon Wood Elves would give me a good challenge, and the models are bone-achingly gorgeous. Plus, a potential book in May's never bad, either! I've got some potential lists, and would love some feedback. They're similar to one another, as those are the models I have. My local scene (in Bellingham) is experiencing an upsurge, and the meta is still working itself out. It seems to have some powerful armies, though, so I reckon anything goes.

 

For ease of comparison, I've tried to mark out the differences between groups in red.

 

List A

2498 Points

    

(275)  Spellweaver (Lore of Life), Level 4, Dispell

(350)  Treeman Ancient, Annoyance of Netlings

 

(130)  Noble, BSB, Asyendi's Bane, Hail of Doom Arrow

 

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

 

(410) 6 Treekin, Elder

(156) 6 Wildriders, Musician

 

(285)  Treeman

(50)  Eagle

(50)  Eagle

    

This was the first list I came up with. 3 Hard combat units in the form of 2 treeman and a big unit of treekin. Plenty of diverters in the form of dryads and eagles, great magic, lots of shooting, and a decent unit of Wildriders. I like this, but I think it had too much shooting for me. I know some folks swear by those units of gladeguard, but shooting in Warhammer has always been (to me at least) about removing support units, and softening combat units. I didn't care for the 6th edition pre-Army Book Woodies who were all about the 5 man archer units. I was tickled pink about the hit and run ambush tactics of the current book (holy crap, is the current book really a remnent from 6th edition? We need a new book!). I wanted some tweaks - more hard hitting units, and less shooting. So I tried:

 

List B

2500 Points

    

(275)  Spellweaver (Lore of Life), Level 4, Dispell

(350)  Treeman Ancient, Annoyance of Netlings

 

(130)  Noble, BSB, Asyendi's Bane, Hail of Doom Arrow

 

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(85) 5 Scouts

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

 

(195) 3 Treekin

(410) 6 Treekin, Elder

(130) 5 Wildriders, Musician

 

(285)  Treeman

(50)  Eagle

(50)  Eagle  

 

Here, the scouts give me another annoying maneuverable unit, and a decent option for the mage, what with the speed and the-1 to shoot at as skirmishers. In exchange, I have a forest spirit-heavy army - 2 Treemen, 2 units of Treekin, Wildriders, and plenty of dryads. Still decent shooting, betwee, the Glade Guard, 2 strangle roots, and the Hail of Doom Arrow. Not sure how it'll play, but this definitely feels like a contender.  But is it too hard hitting? Less of a Wood Elf list and more of a spirit list? I wanted to try something that hearkened back to my old 6th/7th list, so I tried dropping the Treeman Ancient and came up with ....

 

List C

2498 Points

    

(305)  Spellweaver (Lore of Life), Level 4, Wand of Wych Elm

 

 

(140) Wardancer Noble, Moonstone of the Hidden Ways

(130)  Noble, BSB, Asyendi's Bane, Hail of Doom Arrow

 

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(85) 5 Scouts

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

 

(90) 5 Wardancers

(108) 6 Wardancers

(195) 3 Treekin

(390) 6 Treekin

(130) 5 Wildriders, Musician

 

(285)  Treeman

(50)  Eagle

(50)  Eagle  

 

Here, I was able to get the points for the Wand of Wych Elm (reroll failed dispells) instead of the dispell scroll. Otherwise, I switched out the Treeman ancient for... wardancers. They seem so bad in the current addition, but they're cheap, mobile, expendable, and can hit hard. While the Moonstone Noble is situational, being able to teleport across the board, potentially into the opponent's backfield is so wonderful when it works. Still ... so fragile! Maybe something more utilitarian? Like Waywatchers?

 

List D

2498 Points

    

(275)  Spellweaver (Lore of Life), Level 4, Dispell

 

(140) Wardancer Noble, Moonstone of the Hidden Ways

(130)  Noble, BSB, Asyendi's Bane, Hail of Doom Arrow

 

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(126) 10 Glade Guard, Musician

(85) 5 Scouts

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

(96) 8 Dryads

 

(108) 6 Wardancers

(195) 3 Treekin

(390) 6 Treekin

(130) 5 Wildriders, Musician

 

(285)  Treeman

(50)  Eagle

(50)  Eagle  

(120) 5 Waywatchers

 

Here, I don't go all in with 2 units of Wardancers, but the unit I have is beefy enough. Plus, Waywatchers are super-annoying, and the rare times you snipe a dragon rider often mean that people give the Waywatchers lots of attention. This list is likely where I'm most comfortable, though I've got no clue how viable it is. Lots of cheap maeuvaerable unts to dance around and play the positioning game. A couple hard-hitters.

 

So, what do you all think? Currently, I like the look of lists B and D the best, but I've come to rely on the collective wisdom of Ordo. What si you think of the lists, and what advice do you have on how to use them?

[ratrek]

I like A. Punchy and Dancey at the same time.

 

B I could see, those 3 TK aren't that scary to most combat dedicated units.

 

D has a bunch of wasted points IMO. Dancers are kaka with no save and Step Up strikes and while Waywatchers were cool, now that they can't KB monstrous cav or characters on a monster, they're use is rather limited. They pay a bunch of points for rules they don't benefit from anymore.

[HeroZero]

I think you ha e a lot of good ideas but little focus in any of these.

 

I think you should ask yourself what you want to DO during a game... Then we can start helping.

[JMGraham]

I like A. Punchy and Dancey at the same time.

 

B I could see, those 3 TK aren't that scary to most combat dedicated units.

 

D has a bunch of wasted points IMO. Dancers are kaka with no save and Step Up strikes and while Waywatchers were cool, now that they can't KB monstrous cav or characters on a monster, they're use is rather limited. They pay a bunch of points for rules they don't benefit from anymore.

 

Re: B, I reckon if I try and take on a dedicated combat unit with 3 Treekin, I've done something wrong! Heck, even Treemen aren't a threat, they're just going to stick around for a while. The 6 Treekin are pretty much the only thing I'm pushing that are a legitimate combat threat.

 

Re: D - I agree, wardancers suck! There's got to be some way to make them work, though, right? I don't see them as the unit killers they used to be, but smaller units, that can be mostly wiped out are good targets. Flanks and rear will ensure no supporting attacks, and depending on the depth of the unit, a flanl might minimize return attacks more. Certainly, they can no longer go in by themselves. 

 

Waywatchers can't snipe a rider off a monster anymore? What happened?

 

@HeroZero - My plan was what used to be standard Wood Elf doctrine for me:

 

1) Remove enemy support units (with archery, with my support units) while holding up or avoiding the opponent's big combat units (movement, terrain, eagles, sacrificial units).

 

2) Depending on how the opponent reacts, isolate one of the opponent's big units, set up favorable conditions (terrain, no ready support, etc.), and engage it with multiple units, in the flanks and rear if possible.

 

3) Repeat #2 as time and circumstance permit.

 

Of course, my experience with Wood Elves in 8th thus far has been that this process is punctuated by desperately feeding the opponent's blender unit a bunch of sacrificial units while trying to keep it off the bulk of your forces.

[HeroZero]

That helps a lot JMGraham I would try this on for size

 

Spellweaver, Lvl 4, lore of life, wand of wych elm

 

Noble, Great Eagle, Great Weapon, super ward save pendant when at one wound, challenge sprites

 

Noble, BSB +Asyendis Bane, HoDA

 

18 Glade Guard, FC, Banner of Eternal Flame

8 Dryads

8 Dryads

8 Dryads

 

8 Treekin

 

Treeman

Treeman

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

 

Honestly WE shooting isn't all that nor is it a bag of chips. Investing too heavily is the path of disappointment

In the above the treekin and two treemen are the bulk of your combat, while the Dryads bubble wrap your archers.

 

Any list that doesnt include one eagle noble or more is doing it wrong.

[JMGraham]

Hmm... I like the idea of getting the two treemen instead of an ancient, but I'm pretty sure that puts it over the 25% rares. An eagle would have to be dropped. I like the idea of an eagle noble, as well. Seems like a great utility character.

 

My one reticence about that list is that it feels like it has too few maneuver elements. I'm typically a MSU kind of guy, though I know MSU isn't really as much of a thing any more. Instead of one large unit of archers, can't two smaller units do the same thing, but with more flexibility(the ability to split fire if needed) and the ability to lose one without losing everything if one gets caught? Likewise with the 8 treekin... That's a tremendous threat and could likely take any opponents unit head on, but doesn't that make it easy to avoid? In the past, I've found a single tough unit to be much easier to deal with than 2 moderately hard units.

 

Is some flaming attacks fairly necessary these days, for regeneration?

[HeroZero]

My mistake thought this was for 2800 point games.

 

Eagle nobles are amazing, and almost a requirement anymore.

MSU really isn't a thing anymore, 2 smaller units of archers are literally one magic missile from death/uselessness in any magic phase.

It also maximizes the flame banner for dropping regen at range. The sprite that provides magic attacks is also pretty critical but either or, I just prefer flaming.

 

As far as getting caught.... At that point you're borked anyway. I'd just rather not get caught and run down by a single eagle /fast cav unit which is a real possibly at ten dudes.

 

8 treekin is just enough power concentration to reliably win combats against actual threats and no become combat ineffective in one or two fights.

 

Never lose an eagle for a treeman, there are better options. Like more treekin or some wild riders.

[ratrek]

Re: B, I reckon if I try and take on a dedicated combat unit with 3 Treekin, I've done something wrong! Heck, even Treemen aren't a threat, they're just going to stick around for a while. The 6 Treekin are pretty much the only thing I'm pushing that are a legitimate combat threat.

 

Re: D - I agree, wardancers suck! There's got to be some way to make them work, though, right? I don't see them as the unit killers they used to be, but smaller units, that can be mostly wiped out are good targets. Flanks and rear will ensure no supporting attacks, and depending on the depth of the unit, a flanl might minimize return attacks more. Certainly, they can no longer go in by themselves. 

 

Waywatchers can't snipe a rider off a monster anymore? What happened?

 

I can see your reasoning via the 3 Kin, but from what I've seen so far, things are too fast to be able to dance away with anything that isn't a skirmisher or a flier. My worry is they'll get boxed in pretty quick given anything sort of a building isn't really helpful to them anymore and carved down by the first thing with a couple ranks or great weapons.

 

I wish you well re the Dancers but it seems like WE players have been trying that for a numble of years now with little success. Even in a small unit, they're expensive enough to want to kill and probably the first place I see "easy points" in the list. I suspected they'd serve better as a ITP bodyguard for the Arch Mage rather then something you actually want in combat.

 

Sorry the FAQ is for monsterous Cav not guys on monsters. So no KB on things like Demigryphs and such

[JMGraham]

I suspected they'd serve better as a ITP bodyguard for the Arch Mage rather then something you actually want in combat.

 

 

This is a great idea! The fact that they're KIND of combat capable also means that the Mage would be better protected than in a unit of scouts. Still with the skirmishing maneuverability (and extra -1 to hit), and only a point a model more expensive. Plus, then I have an excuse to use some of the models.

 

My reasoning with the 3 treekin is that they could really add to the combat effectiveness of some of the other units. The treemen, the wildriders, a unit of dryads, could all benefit from the addition of some treekin, but without wanting to dedicate a whole slew of points (in the form of a 6- or 8-strong unit of treekin) to the combat. I don't know. This might be a lesson I have to learn the hard way.

 

 

Never lose an eagle for a treeman, there are better options. 

 

 Sounds reasonable. Wish I could fit two basic treemen and two eagles into a 2500 point list. :(

[Raindog]

Jim,

 

I really like the A list. It seems to suit how you would play.

 

 

RD

[HeroZero]

I like list A also, but I'd combine two of those archer units, adding in a standard & champ

I would give the wild riders a banner as well.

[Munkie]

List A seems to be the popular choice but in most of our talks about WE, your lack of fondness for GG spam has come up. I wonder if it would maintain your interest for long.

 

With that in mind, I like List B. But instead of the 3 Treekin, I really like HeroZero's noble on a great eagle. I've always had a fondness for super quick characters that dart off and cause problems.

[JMGraham]

List A seems to be the popular choice but in most of our talks about WE, your lack of fondness for GG spam has come up. I wonder if it would maintain your interest for long.

 

With that in mind, I like List B. But instead of the 3 Treekin, I really like HeroZero's noble on a great eagle. I've always had a fondness for super quick characters that dart off and cause problems.

 

That's my main concern with A. Hmmm... a great eagle noble would let me give him the HoDA, so the BSB's magic slot could be taken up with the Flaming Banner. I like the idea of being able to shift flaming attacks from unit to unit as need be.  Would that let me drop an eagle to shift the Ancient to a regular treeman? That'd free up some more points to beef up an archer unit, or take the Wildriders back to 6. Still, 3 flying utility things would be really nice.

[Raindog]

HoDA in large points game is rarely effective. It is the nature of 8th.

[ratrek]

That's my main concern with A. Hmmm... a great eagle noble would let me give him the HoDA, so the BSB's magic slot could be taken up with the Flaming Banner. I like the idea of being able to shift flaming attacks from unit to unit as need be.  Would that let me drop an eagle to shift the Ancient to a regular treeman? That'd free up some more points to beef up an archer unit, or take the Wildriders back to 6. Still, 3 flying utility things would be really nice.

 

I'd rather give the eagle noble the Brooch for the 3+ Ward

[JMGraham]

HoDA in large points game is rarely effective. It is the nature of 8th.

It's no longer an instant delete-a-support unit? Or, you're saying that support units aren't used as much these days.

[HeroZero]

I think raindogs referring to unit sizes are much larger in this edition and currently the majority of small unit sport good armor saves.

However I disagree that its useless, its 30 points to almost guarantee a deletion of a chaff/fast cavalry/small archer unit.

Counter battery fire is important for wood elves.

[Raindog]

Hoda is not useless, it is not the amazing tool it was…. It is no longer 1+…..

[Munkie]

I think raindogs referring to unit sizes are much larger in this edition and currently the majority of small unit sport good armor saves.

However I disagree that its useless, its 30 points to almost guarantee a deletion of a chaff/fast cavalry/small archer unit.

Counter battery fire is important for wood elves.

 

Yeah I think that's the best application for it. It won't do enough damage to bring a block down to manageable strength but the sooner you can eliminate the mobile elements of the enemy army, the longer you have control of the movement game, and the more you can leverage your strengths.

[Sherbert]

List B looks like it would work really well in our environment. The best armies have a presence in every phase and this list can offer you some sort of choice at any given point. I agree about the 3 treekin though, they will not offer you a lot and will most likely get shot or overwhelmed.   

[JMGraham]

Alright, alright, already!  

 

Using list B as a base, the three Treekin could be rolled into pushing the 6 strong Treekin up to 8, and freeing up 85 points (dropping the Elder) for another unit of scouts (or, possibly a single bigger unit of scouts and a flaming banner with a unit of Glade Guard). Alternatively, I could use the points for an Eagle Noble. I'm tempted by the first option, because If I don't have multiple Treekin units, I want the one unit of Treekin I have to be a [big bad swear word]-all vicious unit of death.

[Wiccus]

I think either the unit of scouts or the bigger archer unit are good investments. A couple of armies up here have a very solid shooting element to them and if you have the ability to shoot back while pushing up the field with some punchy tree dudes then things could go well for you. The eagle character might be cool but he seems very fragile.

[Munkie]

I understand the value of the flaming banner, but it seems a weird inclusion in a WOOD elf army. Not that I think you shouldn't take it, but your Forest Spirits probably think you're a dick.

[JMGraham]

The entire forest is one gigantic daemon. I reckon they're into all kinds of weird stuff.

[Munkie]

Well hopefully they're into being kindling, because my Dwarves will light them up like the 4th of July!