8th ed Dark Elf Assassin builds

[McNathanson]

In the spirit of dk's "Dwarf Lord Build" thread, I'd like to hear what the DE generals (MexicanNinja and others!) out there think is a tough Assassin build.  I realize they aren't a great way to spend points in an optimized list, but a) I'm not making an optimized list and b) I like Assassins!

I want the Assassin to be tough, because, well, he should be able to assassinate something!  So anyway, whattya think?

Here's my current idea:

 

Extra Hand Weapon
Dark Venom (Killing Blow)

Potion of Strength

Charmed Shield

Opal Amulet (4+ ward vs. first wound)

 

Gives him decent survivability and a pretty wicked round of attacks if he's jacked up on the Potion of Strength.  In a challenge against most characters he should get 2 rounds of attacks to land a KB, or if he's lucky finish them off with a few S7 hits.

I have no idea how it'll work and I haven't played it yet, but it seems okay on paper :)

Other ideas?

 

[MexicanNinja]

Here's my toughest Assassin build....Don't take one.

 

Sorry NtK, IMO, this guy is a waste of points.  Without coming with a stock 4+ or 5+ ward save this dude is just asking to die in a single round of combat.  Honestly, I just don't see him doing much other than killing rank and file.

 

However, you asked for a build, so I am not going to write the above without delivering a build:

 

Extra Hand Weapon

Dark Venom

Talisman of Preservation

 

That's it really, survivabilty.  I just don't see this guy worth taking over a master.  This hero was a huge let down to me.  He loses to skaven assassin 95% of the time.

[McNathanson]

Yeah I hear you MN, thanks for the reply anyway!  I totally agree a Master would be more effective for the points!  But the way I see it I could say the same thing about most of my army ;)  So I'm not really worrying about fully optimizing, just want a list that is fun and capable.  The Dark Elves seem to be good enough that even with a relatively tame list, I can give my opponent a good game if I play it right.

I'll run him for a while and see how it goes.  I just love the idea of a Dark Elf Ninja and the model is one of my favs.  Maybe I read too many Drizzt novels as a kid ;)

Thanks,
Nathan

[Lion of Flanders]

Nathan:

 

Druchii.net has a topic about interesting Assassin builds, with all generally agreeing that they are inefficient. I am with you in that I like the imagery and the idea of the character, so you should play 'em now and then....

 

I thought I'd find the thread and post a link, but I have failed.....see if you can find it, or lacking that I'll find it when I have more than a minute and post a link here...

[MexicanNinja]

I was just disgusted with the assassin in the army book.  I loved them in the last book, and was hoping they just stayed the same.  In the end, I would either take an assassin with killing blow and the following:

 

ToP and Charmed Shiedl

Armour of Destiny

 

Just give him a 4++ and see how many turns he can swing away.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Take the assassin for fluff purpose only. There is a chance he could kill a character and will kill a champion in a challenge (most likely) but he will die fast after that. I wouldn't dump too many points into him and hope the psychological effect will have more effect than his ability.

 

I wouldn't bother with a ward save and go with a bonus to his strength. He gets re-rolls with his to hits so he will most likely hit but you have to make sure it gets past the armor save. Strength 6 with potion of strength will give an almost assured wound on most models because of MP. But that is still just looking at it nicely.

 

Question, do you have to declare you are using the potion before challenges are issued or can you declare it after the challenge has been accepted?

[Munkie]

Take the assassin for fluff purpose only. There is a chance he could kill a character and will kill a champion in a challenge (most likely) but he will die fast after that. I wouldn't dump too many points into him and hope the psychological effect will have more effect than his ability.

 

I wouldn't bother with a ward save and go with a bonus to his strength. He gets re-rolls with his to hits so he will most likely hit but you have to make sure it gets past the armor save. Strength 6 with potion of strength will give an almost assured wound on most models because of MP. But that is still just looking at it nicely.

 

Question, do you have to declare you are using the potion before challenges are issued or can you declare it after the challenge has been accepted?

 

Start of turn innit?

 

*Edit* Yeah, just checked. It's start of turn. So before you even know if your charge is successful...

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Hmm.... so your opponent will just exept the challenge with his champ instead of his charaters the turn you use the potion.

 

*Whaa-whaa*

[MexicanNinja]

Take the assassin for fluff purpose only. There is a chance he could kill a character and will kill a champion in a challenge (most likely) but he will die fast after that. I wouldn't dump too many points into him and hope the psychological effect will have more effect than his ability.

 

I wouldn't bother with a ward save and go with a bonus to his strength. He gets re-rolls with his to hits so he will most likely hit but you have to make sure it gets past the armor save. Strength 6 with potion of strength will give an almost assured wound on most models because of MP. But that is still just looking at it nicely.

 

Question, do you have to declare you are using the potion before challenges are issued or can you declare it after the challenge has been accepted?

We could test this theory out sometime Murphy.  I'll take the ward save and you take the strength potion.  I'll sack my unit champ to him the first challange, deny the second, and then rape him with rank-and-file.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

That is what I noticed when I realized you have to declare the potion use at the beginning of the round. Let me take a look and see if there is another way. Still don't think putting many points into him is a good idea and more important characters should get the 4+ ward first. IMO.

 

Of course this is proving the assassin's worth. ;)

[MexicanNinja]

Well, I wouldn't even waste points on an assassin.  However, you either get damage or survivability with the assassin.  Without survivability you need to get the job done fast.  If there are multiple characters plus a unit champ in a unit, I just don't see him doing the job.  All you have to do is not accept a challenge and then who cares about his 4 attacks.  If I were going to use points on one I would want survivability, as I've seen how the killing blow works with only 4 attacks with my Bret Lord, you won't always get the results you think in a single round of combat.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Wait, 4 attacks. I thought they only had 3. Do thrown weapons give and extra attack, because I didn't think it did.

 

If it was 4 attacks that is one more attack to get a Killing Blow through.

[McNathanson]

Murphy: the Potion has to be used start of turn, so if you're going after a unit with a champ, you want to kill the champ before using the Potion.  If they accept with a character to start, you can drink the Potion for round 2… very few challengers are going to kill this guy in 1 round with the Charmed Shield + Ward (and those characters should be avoided anyway).

But for my build, the Potion is actually more about killing war machines or other light units.  He should get ~3 wounds with his 4 ASF attacks and S7 + KB.  For fighting characters, I'd be hoping for the KB in 1 or 2 rounds that he'll survive.

Like MNinja said, RnF will of course be rough.  It's usually only 4 guys directing at him, many hitting on 5s, and he's still got the Shield and Ward to survive a round or two.  If he's forcing a character out of the fight by challenge refusal at least that's something.  And he's going to take fewer wounds than most DE infantry so those directed attacks will help out the DE side of the combat.

Any other suggested builds?  Magic Weapons seem like a non-starter because of AHW.  I'm kinda tempted by the Armor of Silvered Steel + Luckstone combo, but his hitting power drops so much.  Perhaps getting Manbane (+1 to Wound) and that AoSS + LS combo would make him a light unit blender, and he could just avoid big units and characters altogether, I don't know.

 

I'm going to run him with my initial build and see how useful/useless he seems.

 

[MexicanNinja]

Well, now that I know what his primary role would be, it makes things much easier to disect.  I am going to assume that he is going into a healthy unit of shades....say 7-10?  The +1 to wound is nice if you are going for weak flank units and war machine crew.

 

Here's a build I would use for putting him in shades:

 

Repeater Handbow

Dark Venom

Glittering Scales

Terrifying Mask of EEE!

 

Why that random build?  You get 2 ranged attacks with killing blow, if you don't want to engage with the shades (I'd give the shades great weapons of course) and the unit would be roughly 10 models.  You are going to be hit on either 5's or 6's in close combat.  You can force terror checks on units by declaring charges.  The cool trick is that you don't even have to reveal the assassin for the terror test to be caused.

 

I know, you pretty much die to anything you are hit by, but you have the potential to start early, possible game changer terror tests, in the back field of your opponent.  A few units running through their lines could cause a lot of problem.  I just may have to test this out sometime.

 

NtK, thank you for this thread.  I may have found a way to play an assassin!

[McNathanson]

Does Dark Venom give his ranged attacks KB?

[McNathanson]

Glad you found an approach you want to try!  I tried long and hard to get a build with Glittering Scales that I like, but I just can't justify losing the Charmed Shield for only 5 points.  A grinder-style guy with Glittering Scales and Sword of Might + Manbane might be cool… again if he can survive he'll deal a good number of consistent wounds.  But for short combats the Charmed Shield seems like the best option (unless I guess you've already used it on another guy!)

Also I don't always plan to run him in Shades unit, they are just one option.  I want him to be useful in the Shades, or my Corsairs, or even bolstering my Black Guard + BSB.  The surprise factor is lots of fun I think!  In the Shades, he'll probably reveal in my opponent's CC phase, then drink his Potion at the start of my next turn and charge something like a war machine or fast cav unit.  In the Corsairs, he'll give them a chance to beat some weaker units in CC, hopefully by neutralizing an enemy character.  In my Black Guard he'll just add a bunch of attacks and KB to improve their efficacy against armored units, etc.

I see potential in all these combos/ideas but nothing of course as effective as running another Master + Reaper, which is what he costs :P

[MexicanNinja]

The assassin gains killing blow from Dark Venom.  It doesn't state that it is only for his close combat attacks.  I also believe that is the reason he may only take the repeater and not a brace of handbows.  The same is tru for the +1 to wound.  It would also apply to his ranged attacks.

[Iraf]

The last sentence in the Killing Blow section of the rulebook states that:

 

"Unless otherwise specified, Killing Blow applies only to close combat attacks."  Page 72.

[Lion of Flanders]

Found it. Some made to be effective, some just for amusement.

 

http://druchii.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72879

[Munkie]

I don't play DE, so take what I say with a grain of "who's this guy", but if you're talking about getting use out of an assassin, placement within units should be a part of the conversation.

 

The advantage of 20mm bases is you often times get one model who's only corner-to-corner with the the enemy unit. If you place your assassin here, only 2 rank and file models get swings on him. That, combined with a high WS goes a long way toward keeping him alive. On the other hand, if he's sitting center mass against an opposing block of 20mm, he's got 9 bases swinging at him.

 

With total control over when and where, he's more survivable than paper suggests.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

@Munkie. Yes he will be Way more survivable but the Assassin being used as a rank and file killer is waisting his points and purpose. He is suppose to be a character killer, more so than a Master, but fails. When going for a R&F killer you must take the master becuase with his armor save R&F are not touching him with a dawn stone.

 

I will say that if there was a Wizard in the other unit that is an interesting way to kill him fast and stay safe.

 

But you are right, he will kill R&F like nothing.

[Munkie]

I'm not talking about killing rank and file, I'm talking about avoiding attacks from them. People tend to place characters at the corners of units, in my experience. If he pops up so he's only corner-to-corner, he can assassinate the character and then receive 2 models worth of retaliation, which are unlikely to kill him in one turn.

[McNathanson]

Oh one thing I didn't ask about my build: does Charmed Shield still discount the first hit if it's not being "used" (meaning for example I have an Additional Hand Weapon)?  I was assuming it would still have the magical effect, but NOT give the +1 AS bonus.  Is that right?

[McNathanson]

I'm not talking about killing rank and file, I'm talking about avoiding attacks from them. People tend to place characters at the corners of units, in my experience. If he pops up so he's only corner-to-corner, he can assassinate the character and then receive 2 models worth of retaliation, which are unlikely to kill him in one turn.

 

I'd expect three models generally to attack him, including supporting attacks, right?  Four if there's not a corner character to fight him?

[McNathanson]

Scott I looked over those builds, all very cute.  I still don't like any build that doesn't give him Potion of Strength or the Black Dragon Egg, because otherwise he's just too dependent on KB to get through armor!

The Sword of Anti-Heroes might work well against some armies, but in general the best you could hope for is +1S and +1A which isn't worth the use of 30 points of his magic item allowance, when compared to +1A for AHW.

So I'm still thinking Potion of Strength (BDE is already in use in my army, or I'd be using that).

Given PoS, I'm torn between Charmed Shield, or Glittering Scales.

And that leaves just the Talisman slot open, which I don't see too many compelling options… Opal Amulet is the best if you have the points to burn, I think, although Seed of Rebirth might be okay choice too.

Also, Manbane sucks IMO.  I would always take Dark Venom instead.

Fun fun!