Fallen + Transports?

[Guest]

Am I unable to transport any Fallen models in a CSM army?

None of them have the <legion> keyword and the rules say I can't assign Fallen a legion for my tranports....Rules do say I can include Fallen in my Legion-specific detachment. Kinda lost as to how they think I'm fielding Legion models in my CSM army...

If wondering, I thought it would be fun to paint up a member of each loyalist chapter as member of the fallen and include them in my CSM army...A good use for army specific old models I have, but don't really know what to do with. 

[WestRider]

Yep. They are, unfortunately, stuck walking.

[VonVilkee]

 for what you are doing pax you should make them renegades. Fallen are pretty specifically dark angels on the losing side of their personal civil war. The fallen are not renegades or marines from other chapters. The dark angels history talks at length about the fallen.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, VonVilkee said:

 for what you are doing pax you should make them renegades. Fallen are pretty specifically dark angels on the losing side of their personal civil war. The fallen are not renegades or marines from other chapters. The dark angels history talks at length about the fallen.

I don't think that's quite correct, but doesn't matter much to me. For me, the issue is that I only wanted a squad, not an entire army. To take Renegades in my army, I'd need to switch legion rules or give them their own detachment. 

As for "losing side," I don't really chaos is really losing against the imperium. Listening to imperial propaganda again, vonvilkee? We just only hear about things as per the Imperium end of things, and holy terra just got hit by bloodthirsters, so "losing" seems to be overestimating the Imperium. I don't recall a single battle where the imperium tries to take to the fight to chaos, no, they always play defense. Sometimes, the imperium gets the nerve to come fight at the border (that would be the eye of terror), but they don't dare come inside (because they know they'd lose big time). At best, they try to seal the border, which is not the same thing as trying to actually defeat, permanently, their opponent. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WestRider said:

Yep. They are, unfortunately, stuck walking.

Terrible. I wonder if GW realises this, or if it's an oversight. Given that they mostly have short range weapon options, I kinda wonder if they have forgeten that they got rid of dedicated transport options. 

Not even an FW vehicle can transport them...I suppose they can still go in buildings, but that's not really what I'm looking for. 

[Guest]

As an aside, Fallen are a weird unit to have in the CSM codex. They have both the Imperium and Chaos faction keywords, and are completely ineligible for any of the CSM stratagems or Artefacts. Really, they have nothing that normal SM can't get, with the posible exception of the Autocannon and the Chainaxe, but just because those are on the CSM heavy and melee weapon lists, not because it mentions those weapons in their profile. 

[WestRider]

14 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

As for "losing side," I don't really chaos is really losing against the imperium.

Not Chaos as a whole, but the Fallen lost pretty solidly to the Loyalist Dark Angels. They have been doing an impressive job of stretching out the mop-up operation, but that's about the best you can say for their results.

[Guest]

Just now, WestRider said:

Not Chaos as a whole, but the Fallen lost pretty solidly to the Loyalist Dark Angels. They have been doing an impressive job of stretching out the mop-up operation, but that's about the best you can say for their results.

I guess I can agree with that. 

I do wish GW had done something more with their rules. As is, not sure why they are even included in the CSM codex (they aren't CSM so why are they here...). 

[VonVilkee]

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I guess I can agree with that. 

I do wish GW had done something more with their rules. As is, not sure why they are even included in the CSM codex (they aren't CSM so why are they here...). 

Cuz they ain't loyalist!

As for the side yeah I didn't say they were on the losing side of the heresy just the dark angel rift on purpose. The heresy ain't over so there are no winners or losers there yet... bitter and twisted to the end

[InfestedKerrigan]

7 hours ago, WestRider said:

Not Chaos as a whole, but the Fallen lost pretty solidly to the "Loyalist" Dark Angels. They have been doing an impressive job of stretching out the mop-up operation, but that's about the best you can say for their results until Cypher arrives at the Golden Throne.

Ftfy

[VonVilkee]

1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Ftfy

This I also did not state which side I felt was loyalist or chaos... the fallen is the term the winning dark angels applied to the losing dark angels... we may never know who was right or wrong history is written by winners for the most part

[Guest]

On that note, they do have the Imperium Faction Keyword, so they are completely legal to field in an Imperium detachment, despite being found in the CSM codex. Not sure what the gain here is, but it is an option if you wanted an army of SM that could be chaos or loyalist without any changes. 

[PourSpelur]

I always thought it was pretty well hinted at that the "Fallen" were actually the Dark Angels that stayed loyal to the Emp.

Group A wants to follow Horus, group B stays with Emperor. Heresy happens, mass confusion. Group A claims they were loyalists all along, gets believed by rest of Imperium because fighting was done "in-house" so not witnessed. Group A switches back and declares group B as heretics. THAT'S why they're so zealous and secret about the fallen, they don't want the truth to come to light.

[peter.cosgrove]

The fallen are cheap chosen. They can take pretty much what the chosen can take and get a special shooting bonus if they don't move. If you KNOW you are going to be walking chosen across the board then don't take chosen, take fallen. With splitfire..

you know what.. here.. I have no clue why I would want to type all this crap out again

http://www.ordofanaticus.com/topic/208712-chaos-space-marines-8th-ed-escalation-thread/

Which is which? Chaos Space Marines / Chosen / Havocs / Fallen.

For these units you really have to lump them all together and there is a reason why. They all got hit with the vanilla bat. If you want to make a comparison between Chosen and Khorne Zerkers then do that. Other than that specific comparison you are going to be looking at these 4 units together trying to pick and choose the best choice which will be most likely based on massed shooty and relying on the +3 armor save for the additional fight capability in units of 5, but added choices in groups of 7-10. They all can take heavy weapons. They all can take special weapons. Chaos icons don't help any of them for shooty. You have to take a Chaos Lord with them for shooty/assaulty re-rolls (or Cypher for the fallen). Abaddon has lost his special affinity for Chosen, so you can get the same effect from him with all 3 non-Fallen units. Now, here is the reason why. Chosen have to give up their bolter for a chainsword, they didn't have to do that before. Chaos Space Marines have to give up their bolter for a chainsword, they also didn't have to do that before. Havocs.. surprise surprise, have to give up their bolter for a chainsword. Fallen, have to give up their bolter for a chainsword. All 4 units can take heavy/special weapons but they have to give up their bolter for it. So. If you want shooty with 2 attacks base take either Chosen or Fallen. Fallen can't go into transports (But they can go into fortifications :wink:) but that distinction is pointless because you can't shoot out of a rhino. If you want long range shooty you have to take havocs and either put them into a bunker or pay a LOT for the ablatives they will need on the 8th edition battlefield. Something to note, havocs don't get any shooting bonuses like Devastators/Long Fangs/Fallen. BUT with all these units you can bring a mix/match of heavy/special shooty weapons and plus up with added chainsword/pistol whippers to take the wounds and add to the assault if you bring 7-10 of them.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, PourSpelur said:

I always thought it was pretty well hinted at that the "Fallen" were actually the Dark Angels that stayed loyal to the Emp.

Group A wants to follow Horus, group B stays with Emperor. Heresy happens, mass confusion. Group A claims they were loyalists all along, gets believed by rest of Imperium because fighting was done "in-house" so not witnessed. Group A switches back and declares group B as heretics. THAT'S why they're so zealous and secret about the fallen, they don't want the truth to come to light.

The Emperor died, no thanks to the Ultramarines, and so Group B really isn't staying with the Emperor. Group B stayed with the Government that Failed to protect the Emperor. Group A, not really clear if they really served chaos, or if being kicked out and hunted forced them to seek other masters in a past tense capacity. 

I will note that Lion 'El Jonson, their Primarch, is not dead, and is actually sleeping in the "Loyalist" DA base (The Rock). Never established if he turned to chaos or not. 

I always kinda got the feeling that Lion 'El Jonson turned to Chaos and some of his own chapter backstabbed him. It would fit with their fluff (they are very anti-chaos even in their backstory). Plus, given that he is sedated in the Rock, he's more of a hostage that keeps the Fallen from taking any real action (like becoming a chapter again).

 

[peter.cosgrove]

On 11/2/2017 at 11:17 PM, paxmiles said:

Terrible. I wonder if GW realises this, or if it's an oversight. Given that they mostly have short range weapon options, I kinda wonder if they have forgeten that they got rid of dedicated transport options. 

umm. short range? 5 plasma guns and a lascannon is now considered short range? with their own re-rolls of 1 when stationary? Foo on you.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, peter.cosgrove said:

umm. short range? 5 plasma guns and a lascannon is now considered short range? with their own re-rolls of 1 when stationary? Foo on you.

Are you seriously equipping them as such? What a huge waste of points. 

92pts of guns (one is a combi-plasma) on 140pts of infantry (because for 6 of them to have weapon upgrades, the squad needs to be 10-man). So 232pts. Drop the Lascannon and they could be 5-man with 4 plasma and 1 combi-plasma for 137pts.

Unit's not bad, but I'd rather have the same thing (the 5-man) with Havocs for 5pts less, and then just have a Chaos Lord within 6". And those guys can be in a transport or benefit from a legion trait.

If they get their own codex supplement and become troops, sure, fallen could be amazing, but if they have their own codex, hopefully they get transports....