Ravenguard Chapter Tactics, WTF?

[Guest]

This one caught my eye, as it is odd. Every chapter tactic grants two abilities to models with chapter tactics. You can usually stack the two abilities, which makes a particular chapter favor certain units, the ravenguard chapter tactics don't work with each other at all, in fact, as I read it, no unit can benefit from both abilities.

 

Ability #1 is turn 1 stealth and non-vehicle scout moves. It's nice, but it specifically doesn't apply to bulky or very bulky models.

 

Ability #2 only applies to jump infantry - a unit type which the BRB specifically says are always bulky.

 

So, in function, I basically have a ravenwing/deathwing army set up, though this one is more scoutwing/jumpwing. I can mix the two, yeah, but not in the same units.

 

I don't fully grasp the value of these chapter tactics either.

 

I see a little bit, but it seems more prone to counter intuitive rules interpretations than to actually reflecting the ravenguard. In example, neither bike nor artillery units have the bulky USR, so the thunder-fire cannon, attack bikes, scout bikes and normal bikes can all benefit from turn 1 stealth and scout. Yeah, you can sneak a thunderfire cannon and a motorcycle into a sneaky position, but those jump packs just don't work like that....

 

As for the jump infantry route, yeah, I suppose you could do that. You've got the vanguard and assault squads, plus the storm ravens to transport them. Still, unless I grossly misunderstand these rules, these have got to be some of the worst chapter tactics in the codex.

 

Can someone explain what I'm missing?

[InfestedKerrigan]

I don't think you're missing anything.  I'm pretty sure most people that were excited to see what was going to happen for Ravenguard cried when we found out what they actually got.  I wouldn't be surprised if it were an attempt on GWs part to keep things like 10 infiltrating Assault Termies on first turn with stealth/shrouding from happening.

[Threejacks]

 Yeah RG got doinked on the chapter tactics thing..

 

 Im still planning to use my RG sub chapter I came up with joined with my Tau detatchement.

 

 Two main reasons my list will benefit..first off im using a full squad of assault marines as I do like the ability to use the jump packs both in movement and to reroll assault range.The second thing im going to try is a 5 marine assault team with packs removed using a drop pod and 2x flamers dropping turn one..at least they will get the shrouded rule for that return fire during turn one,

 

 Then of course my main Squad of marines can either scout move or  outflank.

 

  Also im using a LSS loaded with scouts so doesn't that give the LSS a +2 to its cover save for first turn shooting?..I know that the LSS doesn't benefit from CT but isint it part of a unit that does due to carrying the scouts?

 

  Its not competitive but should be fun to play with all the deep striking/outflanking possibilities

[Chaos Lord Chris]

You're not missing anything, RG just got the shaft in the Chapter Tactics department. If they had Stealth, like, all the time and not just on first turn (where it'll be redundant with the stealth provided by Night Fight half the time anyway) they might have been pretty good. The jump pack part is kinda nice, at least until you look at Bikes and realize they're STILL a better value.

[AbusePuppy]

Raven Guard kinda suck. They easily have the worst Tactic, don't get "supplement" units like BT do, and have a pretty weak special character to boot.

[Guest]

Huh...very disappointing. Was hoping that the "using the jump packs to in the assault phase" would mean moving like jet infantry in the assault phase, but that doesn't seem to be anyone's understanding - it was a stretch, so I had to ask without suggesting it.

 

Anyway, in terms of uses for the chapter tactics, there are some. Turn 1 stealth can be used for turn 1 pod units, camo-cloak scouts, thunderfire cannons, bikes, devastators, and so forth. Scout confers to dedicated transports, so you've got rhinos and razorbacks deploying pretty deep into enemy terrority (or you could hop back 12" to force the opponent to be out of range on those those weapons deployed to just barely be in range.), Bike units can outflank, Devastators could be that much closer with multi-meltas.

 

Very notable is that both stealth and scout USRs are conferred to joined units, so ravenguard models join to, or by, battlebrothers retain the scout/outflank/stealth - still doesn't allow bulky models to benefit, as per the description. So, in example, black templar cursader blob joined by a ravenguard psyker has turn 1 stealth, scout, outflank, adamantium will and Crusader, as all of these USRs just require a single model in the unit to have them.

 

As for the jump infantry, mostly fail. Basically, you can bring elite or fast jump infantry and get an extra swing on the charge. It does mean that their jump units can handle horde a bit better, because the average JP infantry is 1 base, 2 with CCW+BP, 3 with charge, and 4 with hammer. The re-roll on the charge distance isn't horrible.

 

And as for shrike, he's an interesting one as an ally for another army. BA wouldn't turn away a model that allows them to infiltrate their troop jump infantry. In the BRB, it remains very unclear if the use of the jump pack in both phases would carry over to a joined unit.

 

For other notes, looks like that armour indomitus is specifically included to allow ravenguard to not be completely shafted on their chapter master's oribital strike, as it allows both a non-bulky model to have relentless and a jump model to gain relentless. Basically, with this, you could benefit from either chapter tactic rule, while being able to move and fire the orbital strike.

[fluger]

I think I posted this whole thing back when the dex came out, lol!  :P

[Guest]

I think I posted this whole thing back when the dex came out, lol!  :P

Yeah, I could have sworn there was one, but I didn't both looking for the old thread - the search function is really hard to use if you don't remember specific phrases.

[Guest]

So, yeah, are there any players fielding RG that actually use the RG chapter tactics? Do they work in practice rather than in theory-hammer?

[Lord Hanaur]

I will still play Raven Guard because Shrike is in fact a cool model.

 

And also because sneaky and fast are good.

 

And also because they have an EXTREMELY cool name.  It's pretty hard to beat.

 

And also:  sneakiness for the win as well.

[WestRider]

I've used them a couple of times with my Crimson Thunder marines. Got some good results out of the Scouting and Stealth, but the Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets were still really underwhelming even with the boost.

[Guest]

I will still play Raven Guard.

I've used them a couple of times with my Crimson Thunder marines. Got some good results out of the Scouting and Stealth, but the Assault Marines and Vanguard Vets were still really underwhelming even with the boost.

To both:

 

So, got a sample list, maybe a explaination of how the list functions and maybe a why on how it benefited from the RG chapter tactics? I'm just trying to figure out how "sneaky" looks on tabletop.

[WestRider]

I don't really remember the details, I haven't really run my Marines since I got briefly excited about them right after the Dex dropped. I do remember that being able to Scout Multi-Meltas forward was handy, and it was nice to be able to take up firing positions that were just outside my Deployment Zone.

[winterman]

http://www.torrentoffire.com/3102/mission-elevate-the-underdog

 

The list detailed above and similar lists fielded by reecius of frontline gaming are about the only way you will see RG played.  40-50 scouting marines in rhinos + an assault squad or two for counter assault. Which is silly since RG are known for being less into mech than most marines.

 

White Scars + Khan will probably make a better version of those lists though.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

I have ran them in smaller points, dropping 20 marines 6" forward put them in spots that took advantage of midfield terrain. Also redeploy 6" can help when going first force bad decisions from opponent.

 

Rhino rush work well too. Pushing 6 rhinos forward with ten marines each can be great. For whatever reasons they felt 2 chapters should have this and the other dord it better.

 

Rg works great in city fighting 1k games played on 4x4.

[Guest]

http://www.torrentoffire.com/3102/mission-elevate-the-underdog

 

The list detailed above and similar lists fielded by reecius of frontline gaming are about the only way you will see RG played.  40-50 scouting marines in rhinos + an assault squad or two for counter assault. Which is silly since RG are known for being less into mech than most marines.

 

White Scars + Khan will probably make a better version of those lists though.

Yeah, seems like RG would be better off with blood angel rules if going for a jump infantry theme. I think in RG chapter tactics, infiltrate would have made loads more sense than scout.

 

I also think the assault marines are overpriced when compared to those bikes. RG chapter tactics would work very nicely with bikes too, given that bikes are "non bulky" models. Turn 1 stealth is potentially better than skilled rider if you go second.

[winterman]

 

 

 RG chapter tactics would work very nicely with bikes too, given that bikes are "non bulky" models.

Bikes are very bulky so RG tactic doesn't apply to them either.

[Guest]

Bikes are very bulky so RG tactic doesn't apply to them either.

Where did you find that, I couldn't find it when I looked.

[winterman]

Its in the rule book FAQ

 

Page 45 – Bikes & Jetbikes, Special Rules.

Add ‘Very Bulky’ to the list of special rules for Bikes and

Jetbikes.

[Guest]

 

Its in the rule book FAQ

 

Page 45 – Bikes & Jetbikes, Special Rules.

Add ‘Very Bulky’ to the list of special rules for Bikes and

Jetbikes.

 

Ah, thank you very much. I did think it seemed odd.