Thinking about coming back

[Zmachine]

Hi everyone. I used to play a lot around a decade ago. I had around 15k in space marines back in 5th edition. Haven't played since 5th and I am thinking about getting back into it. I bought the rules book (simple enough) got a "get started" pack of space marines and bought the codex. 

 

I am however really taken back by the codex. The book is nearly 2/3s fluff and the points seem convoluted to me. Not to mention no index. Is there an easier way to make sense of all this? Am I missing something that should be obvious? 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Things are visually different since then. Points for matched play are on little tables in the backish of the book. Points are updated in Chapter Approved as needed.

You'll see "power level" on the unit datasheet. These are used as a base level for pick up games, or any other time you aren't wanting to nickel and dime your list and just want to play.

And you only pay for what is on the model. You do not pay for a Dread CCW and then pay X to upgrade it to a Missile Launcher. You pay for the final equipped model. 

Primaris are a poorly realized true scale marine release. The models are beautiful. The fluff/marketing is, well, classic GW. 

8th edition is a great game. Welcome back!

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

How did you do that photo? That would be perfect as a guide for painting TAU as humans...

[Ish]

14 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

I am however really taken back by the codex. The book is nearly 2/3s fluff and the points seem convoluted to me. Not to mention no index. Is there an easier way to make sense of all this? Am I missing something that should be obvious? 

I can't remember GW ever putting indices into any of their books, except for the "main" rulebooks, and those were usually pretty poor. 

The new way of presenting points costs definitely took some getting used to, but once I wrapped my head around it, I actually came to prefer it. Especially since it allows GW to better tweak the costs of weapons and units independently of one another. Let's say they decide that the Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator is too powerful for Marvin Martian to carry at the current point value, but that the Phlebotinum X-13 Laser Invertor is undercosted for him. They can raise the cost of just the one gun, leaving the other alone. 

I'd recommend getting an app, like Battlescribe, to help with writing lists. It will automate a lot of the math for you and make it easier to experiment with lists.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

I am however really taken back by the codex. The book is nearly 2/3s fluff and the points seem convoluted to me. Not to mention no index. Is there an easier way to make sense of all this? Am I missing something that should be obvious?

It's terrible from an organizational stance. And the FW indexs don't even list points in alphabetical order. And even the GW faqs are jumbled between multiple documents. And USRs are gone, with each similar rule having slightly different wording.

Each army has at least 2 books of rules, their index only units and their codex. And maybe FW additional rules sold in that index. Plus the point updates are now sold in Chapter approved supplements.

New players are expected to require constant flipping between rules.

That said, the actual game mechanics are quite simple. So once the army is created, the game is easier to play than prior editions.

[Ish]

Very few new players will have any need of the Index: Whatever books. Even in the cases of older players with existing army collections, I'd wager a fair few aren't going to require the Indices most of the time.

[WestRider]

Just now, Ish said:

Very few new players will have any need of the Index: Whatever books. Even in the cases of older players with existing army collections, I'd wager a fair few aren't going to require the Indices most of the time.

And when we do, it's usually just one or two pages, that can be photocopied out and tucked into the Codex for easy reference.

[Zmachine]

13 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Each army has at least 2 books of rules, their index only units and their codex. And maybe FW additional rules sold in that index. Plus the point updates are now sold in Chapter approved supplements.

 

Wait so does this mean I need the index as well? Do I have to have two books per army? 

[Ish]

The Data Cards that they sell for various armies that have all the various Stratagems, Tactical Objectives, and Psychic Powers are an invaluable help. (I've really gotta pick up a set of my own.) You can really cut down on the page-flipping by taking a few minutes to "deck build" by removing all the Stratagems that your army cannot use, for example, by Imperial Fists collection doesn't have a single missile launcher in it, buh-bye Flakk Missile Stratagem. 

[Ish]

1 minute ago, Zmachine said:

Wait so does this mean I need the index as well? Do I have to have two books per army? 

No. You do not need the Index books. They are completely optional and only worth having if you see yourself regularly fielding a unit in them that cannot be found in your codex.

For the vanilla Space Marines, the only units that are in the Index: Imperium I that are not found in the Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines are: 

• Tyrannic War Veterans
• Land Raider Terminus Ultra
• Marneus Calgar in Power Armor
• Kor'sarro Khan on Moondrakken
• Legion of the Damned Squad
• Librarian on Bike
• Techmarine on Bike
• Apothecary on Bike
• Ancient on Bike
• Company Champion on Bike
• Veteran Squad on Bike
• Imperial Space Marine (a Warhammer World exclusive limited edition model)
• Rhino Primaris (a Warhammer World exclusive model)
• Land Raider Excelsior (a Warhammer World exclusive model)

The only ones that most Space Marine players are likely to miss are the various "Generic Character on Bike" ones... and those aren't exactly greatly missed by most players. If your 15k of Space Marines were all White Scars, you're screwed. But other than that, you should be okay.

[Zmachine]

4 minutes ago, Ish said:

The only ones that most Space Marine players are likely to miss are the various "Generic Character on Bike" ones... and those aren't exactly greatly missed by most players. If your 15k of Space Marines were all White Scars, you're screwed. But other than that, you should be okay.

 

I used to play 40k with my "little" when I was in the big brother program. When I moved I gave him my whole army. So I am looking at completely restarting.

[Ish]

In that case, you can probably ignore the Indices altogether. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

Wait so does this mean I need the index as well? Do I have to have two books per army? 

You don't need them, per say. You will need the codex AND the current Chapter Approved to see the current point costs, AND you'll need to read the FAQ for those two books, the rulebook's FAQ, the "big" FAQ, and the Designer's commentary...

The indexs are only needed if you want to use units that are only in the indexes. For example, all the fortification rules are in the indexes (and spread across multiple indexes). Some of the no longer supported GW models have rules in the index too. Inquisition is in the index, as are the rules for assassins. The Indexes have their own FAQs too.

FW has their own set of indexes, which are really horribly written to a much lower standard than anything else in 8e. That said, if have or want FW models, that's where the rules are found. FW indexes also have their own FAQs.

Good news is that all the FAQs are now in one spot...:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

[Ish]

Buuut if you're basically just getting into the game as a new player (which, you kinda are) all you officially need is the main Rulebook (or even just the free Battle Primer), your Codex, and the most recent Chapter Approved... and heck, if you never plan to play Matched Play, you can even skip the Chapter Approved! So don't feel like you absolutely must own all of these books.

And, we've even got a Slow Grow Newbie League in the works. So if you want to get some "low pressure" games in with a bunch of other people that are looking to learn or refresh their 8th Edition play, you should totally join us for that.

[Zmachine]

Downloaded the app. One of the things that I was trying to find clarification on was the force org charts. The app seems to have them all in there but is there a listing where I can look at them all next to each other?

[Guest]

Anyway, as a new player, just get your codex and bring some models and ask around for a very beginner game. Don't bother making a list. The game is a lot more fun once you start playing, and having played a game or two will give you direction towards list creation.

Beyond that, there is an alternate way to build lists where you don't use points at all. Instead you use "power level". Each unit has a listed power level. It's easier to use as a new player, but it isn't as balanced as using points.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

Downloaded the app. One of the things that I was trying to find clarification on was the force org charts. The app seems to have them all in there but is there a listing where I can look at them all next to each other?

I use google. I have the book, google is easier:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726698.page

[Lyraeus]

6 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

Downloaded the app. One of the things that I was trying to find clarification on was the force org charts. The app seems to have them all in there but is there a listing where I can look at them all next to each other?

I think the best way to get used to something is to play a game. If anyone has a spade marine army they want to lend out, I have orks and would love to run you through the game.

 

10 years ago means 4th edition I believe as that's when I picked up my first codex the day I graduated Navy Boot camp. So there will be some big differences in getting started again in rules and how vehicles work but I think a small set of games would help you. An easy 500 points to get the basics, a jump to 750 for something slightly bigger. 

[Lyraeus]

9 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

Anyway, as a new player, just get your codex and bring some models and ask around for a very beginner game. Don't bother making a list. The game is a lot more fun once you start playing, and having played a game or two will give you direction towards list creation.

Beyond that, there is an alternate way to build lists where you don't use points at all. Instead you use "power level". Each unit has a listed power level. It's easier to use as a new player, but it isn't as balanced as using points.

Not balanced for sure. 750 lists the space Marines are at 35-40 PL... As an Ork I am 30 or under

[Lyraeus]

@Zmachine if you just want to learn the game I ha e more than enough orks (in various states of painting) to field multiple armies. Not as much as most but as a new ork player I can likely do 1k per side Ish 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Not balanced for sure. 750 lists the space Marines are at 35-40 PL... As an Ork I am 30 or under

The distinction between the two with regards to marines is that PL doesn't take unit weapon choices into account. So a squad of devastators with lascannons has the same PL as the same squad with heavy bolters.

And then even when GW does update the point values, they never alter the power levels. So certain FW units in particular, have really high power levels when compared to their point costs.

[Zmachine]

19 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I use google. I have the book, google is easier:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726698.page

YES! Exactly what I wanted. Thanks!

[Lyraeus]

6 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

The distinction between the two with regards to marines is that PL doesn't take unit weapon choices into account. So a squad of devastators with lascannons has the same PL as the same squad with heavy bolters.

And then even when GW does update the point values, they never alter the power levels. So certain FW units in particular, have really high power levels when compared to their point costs.

True and I was not t asking high PL things. I was taking multiple detachments though so less ability to sink PL into bigger things like Marines did to a redemptor 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Zmachine said:

YES! Exactly what I wanted. Thanks!

Not listed there, but CP starts at 3.

In addition to that, one of the FAQs mentioned altered the CPs on those detachments.

The Battalion is now +5 and the Brigade is now +12. No other changes.

 

So a list that's only a Spearhead Detachment will start at 3CP and gain +1CP for the Spearhead Detachment. So you'll have 4 CP (that's command points) to spend on Stratagems during the game.

[Zmachine]

21 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

@Zmachine if you just want to learn the game I ha e more than enough orks (in various states of painting) to field multiple armies. Not as much as most but as a new ork player I can likely do 1k per side Ish 

That's an awesome offer I may take you up on it! I think I can already field 1k in space marines. A buddy gave me some as a gift last year to try and get me back into it.