Podcast that goes over the Social Contract of 40k

[Lyraeus]

I found this interesting. The Finest Hour has a lady night and goes over the Social Contract and how things should be explained. 

I find that this may help people overall and especially if they want to go to a tournament. 

Finest Hour Podcast | Ep14: Lady's Night
https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-wb2a3-a8c287

 

What are your thoughts on the social contract and how it applies to normal games as well? 

[fluger]

Social contract is everything.  No matter pickup basketball or chutes and ladders.

[Lyraeus]

20 minutes ago, fluger said:

Social contract is everything.  No matter pickup basketball or chutes and ladders.

Yup. I really need to work out how to adv people better. ITC has a written out social contract I think or maybe it was just LVO.... Hmmm

[fluger]

adv people?

 

[Lyraeus]

26 minutes ago, fluger said:

adv people?

 

Advise

[fluger]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Advise

[Lyraeus]

47 minutes ago, fluger said:

Sorry I work at a call center and it slips over Sometimes 

[Lyraeus]

I guess I should of linked this as it is an ITC Format thing not an LVO thing. 

 

@Dark Trainer this is the ITC code of conduct. That is a link to the document itself

[pretre]

1 hour ago, Lyraeus said:

Sorry I work at a call center and it slips over Sometimes 

It's okay, you did the needful.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Lyraeus said:

I guess I should of linked this as it is an ITC Format thing not an LVO thing. 

 

@Dark Trainer this is the ITC code of conduct. That is a link to the document itself

Looking over this with regards to your comments regarding time.

Quote

Clock Enforcement (Yellow Card) - A judge may penalize a player by forcing the game to utilize the rules for a “Timed Game”.  The judge sets the time for both players, and the result of the clock are binding for that game.

So then we go to the ITC rules regarding timed games.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/03/07/open-source-chess-clock-rules-for-warhammer-40k-tournaments/

Most notably, how to resolve melee combat to save time:

Quote

• In the assault phase, a player may always choose to forego rolling to determine the results of a combat, starting with the player whose turn it is. If they choose to save their time this way, their opponent may decide the results of the assault. This can range from leaving the enemy unit unharmed, up to removing the entire unit involved in the combat. This must be decided before any rolls are made in the combat.
  • This is the biggest deviation from book standard and the point we’ve like the most feedback on. This rule developed as a result of player feedback using the system and wanting a way to speed things up but keep it fair from the perspective of the clock. For people that have not used a chess clock before, you may not be used to the concept of saving your time as a high priority. If you were to just pull models off of the table without taking proper steps to save your clock, that is actually not fair to your opponent and violates the spirit of the clock. So, rules have been implemented to create a system to fairly address this. And again, all feedback welcome!
  • Also, an example as this has been confusing people. Player A has a unit of 3 Genestealers remaining in a combat against 10 Berzerkers. Player A player goes first and chooses to not to roll it out, however per the BRB rules they’d have to do this step by step which takes time and in this example let’s assume that Player A is very low on the clock and doesn’t want to take the time to roll the combat out. The Berzerker player now can opt to simply pull the Genestealer unit off of the table, counting them as destroyed and carry on with the game without actually rolling out the attacks. Or, he could opt to possibly leave a single Genestealer and wrap it up to prevent the Berzerkers from being shot in the next shooting phase. People pull units like this all the time normally in games, but this rule is in place to formalize how to do it with the added element of the clock. The thing to remember is that the objective here is not to simulate what is likely to occur or just to speed the game up, but to prevent a player from pulling models instead playing out the game in proper sequence in order to not burn their clock.

If you surround and assault my lone chaplain with hundreds of orks, but don't want to roll the dice because of time, ITC says I can just choose to remove your orks. So if you want the chappy dead, you have to actually roll the dice.

[Guest]

Here's a time related one:

Quote

• Players coming to the table do so with a reasonable expectation to be able to clearly read and understand their opponent’s dice. A player with non-standard dice (wherein each facing is not either a number or a number of pips corresponding to the numbers 1 through 6) may be required by their opponent to use standard dice for that game. This requirement can only be enforced before the game begins. To this end, both players must make their opponent aware of any non-standard dice they are using prior to the game beginning. If they fail to do so, they have committed a foul.

Failing to announce non-standard dice prior to the game is a foul. So by not having easily recognized dice, a player MUST spend extra time pre-game explaining the nature of their dice.

[Guest]

Quote

Consistent slow play evidenced through chess clocks, player reporting, or judges discretion, represents a severe break in decorum. A player found to be doing so has committed a foul.

 

[Guest]

Here's another time waster:

Quote

Whenever a player uses a stratagem, rule or ability in the course of play, they must, if asked, clearly read the entire rule or present the written rule in its entirety to their opponent the first time asked.

 

[Guest]

And no pencils allowed at ITC:

Quote

Whenever a player uses a stratagem, rule or ability in the course of play, they must, if asked, clearly read the entire rule or present the written rule in its entirety to their opponent the first time asked.

And another timed game one from the social contract:

Quote

• Either player in a game may request to use a Chess Clock. If the event does not have any more available clocks the player(s) may use one of their own.

  • The players need not agree on using the clock, if either player wishes to use one, it must be used.

  • Once they have begun to use a clock, the rules governing “Timed Game” are in effect and enforceable by the Judge.

So if one player has a distinctly smaller army, they could ask to use the clock, and in doing so, both players MUST use clocks.

[Guest]

ITC defintely seems anti-horde. And, yet, seems to have lots of rules designed to waste time...

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Looking over this with regards to your comments regarding time.

So then we go to the ITC rules regarding timed games.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/03/07/open-source-chess-clock-rules-for-warhammer-40k-tournaments/

Most notably, how to resolve melee combat to save time:

If you surround and assault my lone chaplain with hundreds of orks, but don't want to roll the dice because of time, ITC says I can just choose to remove your orks. So if you want the chappy dead, you have to actually roll the dice.

Sure, except it has to be agreed upon and doing so will mean I will never play you. Ever again because you. Chose to abuse the spirit of the rule and the code of conduct as that's an impossible reality. Your chaplain has absolutely no way to do that. Not a full 30 man squad. Not. Ever. 

On a side note, I would roll that one out. It's a 2+ save, it's not a guarantee you fail enough saves

A 3+ though... For 15+ wounds? Yea, that's has less than a 1% chance of success 

Here is just 10 orks. Just 10 orks chances to wound a 3+ armor target that's T3 with their banner.

 

 

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Here's another time waster:

 

Missed quoting the slow play rule, oh well. Yes, make your opponent read every rule. At some point after you do so they will likely report it to a judge as you are slowing the game down. Especially if you ask for the same rule more than once. 

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Here's a time related one:

Failing to announce non-standard dice prior to the game is a foul. So by not having easily recognized dice, a player MUST spend extra time pre-game explaining the nature of their dice.

So your dice are non standard. Mine that I use are all pips or numbers except for a symbol on the 6. All my dice with symbols have them on the 6 so there is no inconsistencies. Your dice are Roman numeral based and thus unless your opponent memorizes the colors will have issues when the 4 and 6 are flipped or may not know the Roman numeral system

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

 

Many of the rules you bring up seem hard cut to you and you go enforce them that way but watch you make no friends, be labeled as an extremely toxic individual (really just pendantic imo) as you are purposefully making the game take longer and disrupting the flow of a game (actually important as that can be used as a mind game tactic). Remember they are guidelines to help keep and fair and balanced game and maintain the spirit of the game. Which is laid out here:

• The Warhammer hobby is primarily a means for individuals to enjoy themselves.  Interpersonal actions intended to lessen this enjoyment are not within the spirit of the game. For the ITC, the game of Warhammer 40K is about sporting competition between two individuals. Any actions that are unsportsmanlike are not within the spirit of the game.  

Remember many of the actions I and others take are asking permission, such as your 2 sisters of silence against 12 orks. I asked if you wanted to pull them but never gave up my right to roll dice. 

Requesting a chess clock, yes I can force one but does that ultimately keep to the spirit of the game? Does that take away your fun? So by me enforcing one Guideline I could be breaking the ultimate goal of the Code of Conduct. Sometimes you have to if you are facing a toxic individual. 

 

 

[Lyraeus]

Honestly Pax, you should watch a few of the high level games that have been on twitch or so. It will give you a better idea. Or hell, go listen to a podcast like Best In Faction 

[CaptainA]

Also it should be noted that if a player is abusing the code of conduct for their advantage, that is itself a violation. The idea of the code of conduct is to help players know how they should treat each others, like"Norms" for meetings, it is more for the people that are abusers of the game, and not for the everyday joe. But the everyday Joe can learn things from the document like playing faster and speaking their intention about rolls and such.

[Guest]

You are getting defensive, but I'm not attacking you here. This thread is a passive aggressive thread, by you against me, because you didn't enjoy my understanding of the "social contract" when we played the other day. So I am on the defensive here. Just like that other thread you did after one of our games. 

For starters, I have no desire to play ITC, at all. I find the ITC ruleset to be toxic by itself, and to create toxic players - despite offical arguments to the contrary. They also include tons and tons of rules (including their scoring system) which just make the game take longer.

Regarding the clocks, I don't really care about time in regards to how long a player takes for their turns. In my mind, the game ends when we stop. If you insist on wanting to practice for ITC and insist on complaining at every step that things aren't fast enough (usually on your end), and furthermore, use expediency of game as an excuse to ignore the game rules on every turn - yes, I would very reasonably request using clocks. 

And for the record, you did not ask to remove those sisters of silence, you informed that I had to remove them without you rolling dice because you determined it was improbable for me to save, and then got upset when I requested that you play the game as written. 

@CaptainA You'd have to be there. Lyraeus presents resonably on the forum, but his playstyle is toxic and his attitude towards the ITC rules boarders on cheating. I've been trying to explain it to him because I do not think this is his intention, but I'll admit I'm having trouble. This whole thread is him trying to explain why it's okay for him to be really rude all game and not follow the rules, but if I call him on that, then I'm being rude because the game is supposed to be about him having fun. 

[CaptainA]

@paxmiles If someone is being rude and using the players packet against you, that is a violation in and of itself. The removing models is intended for the person owning the player to remove the models, not their oppoent. If you have say, a guardsmen being shot at by a full unit of whatever, you can take the model off without rolling saves. But if you feel you have a chance, you as the controlling player can ask for it to be rolled out.

Sorry  you feel that way about the ITC. I personally enjoy the format and find you will find jerks in whatever format you  play in. I've played them in friendly settings and in tournament settings.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CaptainA said:

@paxmiles If someone is being rude and using the players packet against you, that is a violation in and of itself. The removing models is intended for the person owning the player to remove the models, not their oppoent. If you have say, a guardsmen being shot at by a full unit of whatever, you can take the model off without rolling saves. But if you feel you have a chance, you as the controlling player can ask for it to be rolled out.

Sorry  you feel that way about the ITC. I personally enjoy the format and find you will find jerks in whatever format you  play in. I've played them in friendly settings and in tournament settings.

Both valid points. And I definitely respect that you enjoy the ITC and it works for you. And as I recal, you are a great example of a fun player to face even in the "darkness" of the ITC.

Regarding my game with Lyraeus, we were not in a tournament. This is just that super casual winter escalation league that Dark Trainer is running. This particular mission was using the ITC scoring system, but this isn't an ITC league.

[Lyraeus]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

And for the record, you did not ask to remove those sisters of silence, you informed that I had to remove them without you rolling dice because you determined it was improbable for me to save, and then got upset when I requested that you play the game as written. 

@CaptainA

I asked you if you. Just wanted to remove them and you asked me why, I said they had no chance of surviving 10+ boyz of attacks and you said no. You asked why I would ask such a thing, I responded it was a time saver, you replied with incredulity that you assumed all ork players wanted to roll dice and that the point of the game was to waste time. 

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

You are getting defensive, but I'm not attacking you here. This thread is a passive aggressive thread, by you against me, because you didn't enjoy my understanding of the "social contract" when we played the other day. So I am on the defensive here. Just like that other thread you did after one of our games. 

 

Your understanding of the social contract is assuming I am a WAAC player who only likes crushing people beneath my heal. So yea, I disagree with your opinion of what the social contract is. 

 

This thread was for everyone. And not intended as passive aggressive. I found it insightful and helpful and shared it as so. Same with the intention with the mini Wargaming combat video. It's to increase level of play and understanding of the game. 

 

You may dislike ITC and assume it's toxic but it has helped generate far more interest in the game and has set up a system where people can compete or know how they stand. So in reality you are stuck in your well known and shown foible of being stuck in the past. 

 

I am not here to fight with you over this but I not going to sit back either. Especially since I am now being labeled as a cheater and a toxic individual. 

[DisruptiveConduct]

Congrats! You have won a locked thread. I understand people can be frustrating and now it is time to cool off. Thanks.