40k 7e Discussion

[sergentzimm]

Deathstar's will always exist as long as GW doesn't understand what a beta test is. They don't understand the concept of breaking their game and that folks will do that. Being able to bring 1000 points of extra models onto the board is exactly that.

 

@huggies01 I don't need to play a game to see how bad some of those spells are. It's easy to overpower an opponent with 30 dice and do whatever you want. I don't need to play a game against a deamon list with 30 dice to know it's broken. 

 

Overall, I am just sad now that they created some pretty cool rules for the psychic phase and bunked it up still. We are still going to have the eternal struggle as a community to balance it as we would like. It would be way more fun to let the people we pay for the rules to create a tight system and then we could just focus on playing games. 

[VonVilkee]

Just out of curiosity why does it seem that we are already trying to homebrew 7e into something that is collectively likable at the shop? If that's what you want then why not just agree on a set of rules that everyone likes, ditch all the GW releases, hurt feelings and be done with it? The productivity rise alone from time not spent arguing the contrafactual minutiae of tabletop should be enough to delve significantly further into Dark Matter.

The reason is just like Reece has said limit first and as you open up the restrictions it is easier to swallow. I'm all for just playing whatever with a pregame discussion but if you are looking at traveling for tournaments there are a couple of obvious abuses that will need looking at warp charges are one. I think The other issues stem from this one. Need to finish reading the rules but I think there are very few ways to get 2+ rerolls now. With no area terrain going to ground ain't as good, invisibility does not give stealth or shrouding, and jink isn't automatic. With units being limited to only a single cast of the same power and enforced that way regardless of ICs being part of it or not you will see the end of most death stars... Need to see how would allocation works for assault but I'm seeing very few 2+ rerollable options and the ones that are there aren't the end all be all now :).

 

The warp charge thing can be massively abused by daemons only in my opinion and only through malific powers every one else is going to perils so much it will self regulate.

 

Jon get used to limitations in sixth they (tournament organizers) were a little slow at patching the gentleman's agreement required loop holes and have made a promise not to be that slow again. Also most show up and play mimics the regular tournament scene, lowest common denominator for a list that way. Models are expensive and wether or not some one goes to tournaments they will gravitate towards a single list that they could take if the bug bit them.

[VonVilkee]

Deathstar's will always exist as long as GW doesn't understand what a beta test is. They don't understand the concept of breaking their game and that folks will do that. Being able to bring 1000 points of extra models onto the board is exactly that.

 

@huggies01 I don't need to play a game to see how bad some of those spells are. It's easy to overpower an opponent with 30 dice and do whatever you want. I don't need to play a game against a deamon list with 30 dice to know it's broken. 

 

Overall, I am just sad now that they created some pretty cool rules for the psychic phase and bunked it up still. We are still going to have the eternal struggle as a community to balance it as we would like. It would be way more fun to let the people we pay for the rules to create a tight system and then we could just focus on playing games.

 

Those thirty dice are fine if they are used for Tzeentch shooty powers or Grey knight buffs. Only problem arises when they are used to get massive malific. Honestly tho I see a battleforged drop pod list smoking that grow list in tournaments. Marines objective secured on all objectives, daemons waste too much time growing and can't kill said Marines and their pods in time.

 

Smart play sees good counters to most of the knee jerk stuff. As a time frame limits some abuses and the ones it don't will be in casual pay where you just need to be like dude WTF why are you doing this? You think I enjoy waiting 45 minutes to go?

[VonVilkee]

Oh! Any battle forged list has options. transports score, and can drive through daemons.

[Fix]

And they were pulling their punches for just how crazy it could get.  Yeah, I just don't see it being a legit problem.

 

Edit: Oh, there was a second page of posts.  Well, this just sounds crazy and out of context then!

[sergentzimm]

The basic loop hole that still exists is that there are too many ways to setup an army that doesn't allow your opponent much of a chance. Spam lists, whether in drop pods or psychic powers, are stale and this edition did nothing to combat that. Hell it made it easier with multiple forge orgs, and that is without the garbage of unbound. 

 

I don't know why I expected better, but I hoped for better. 

 

The final product won't sit out for a bit, until we see if they put out FAQ's and what the general community reaction is. I can say I have no doubts on most events around here. Still excited for some ork shenanigans. Hopefully I can just throw buckets of dice at the problems. 

[Fix]

FAQs are up.  Sorry, Nid players.

 

Also, sayonara to Jaws of the World Wolf and not-generic psychic abilities from Blood Angels and Grey Knights.  Helldrakes got nerfed, too.  They've practically rewritten the Dark Eldar book with all that errata.

[Munkie]

Assault out of reserves?

[Fix]

Hah.  In your dreams.

[Munkie]

Hah. In your dreams.

That's correct. Wake me up when DE can assault worth a damn again.

[Jayne_Cobbb]

Wow.  And Space Wolves cant shut down powers anymore.  Balls.

[TW_Haines]

Reading the faq, have to say space wolves got junk punched. The rune priest lost everything that makes it cool, now its just a librarian with a axe. Only reason to play them is for the extra hq slots in a deathstar.

 

Have to say I am liking alot of the rules clean up on vehicle damage, makes playing iron hands all that much funner. All in all everything I seen looked good, with the exception of taking away the uniqueness of so many marine chapters. Templars, wolves and blood vamp all just got rolled up into space marines.

[Jayne_Cobbb]

Actually, GW just took the force weapon away from the Rune Priest.  It still shuts down powers on a 4+.  not sure why they would take away the force weapon, but that is the sentence the FAQ replaces...

[Fix]

Actually, GW just took the force weapon away from the Rune Priest.  It still shuts down powers on a 4+.  not sure why they would take away the force weapon, but that is the sentence the FAQ replaces...

 

Oh for crying out loud, that's clearly a mistake.

[intrizic]

I think GK got more of a re-write from the FAQ than the DE.  as of yet, I have no opinion on 7th.

[huggies01]

Guys it's really not that bad. Are there some bad things of course. Some really bad things, yup. But there are some really good things too. The worst is going to be if one player has a swarm of psykers and their opponent has 0, that is going to kill. Unbound sucks but so far no one I know here cares to even mention let alone play unbound armies. Terrain is stupid. I'll admit but you are able to agree with your opponent on how you will play it. It's really not that bad.

[intrizic]

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying I have no opinion yet :)  I believe it will come down to what the individual expected out of the early ( 6th was approximately 2 years old) edition jump.

[VonVilkee]

Guys it's really not that bad. Are there some bad things of course. Some really bad things, yup. But there are some really good things too. The worst is going to be if one player has a swarm of psykers and their opponent has 0, that is going to kill. Unbound sucks but so far no one I know here cares to even mention let alone play unbound armies. Terrain is stupid. I'll admit but you are able to agree with your opponent on how you will play it. It's really not that bad.

Shae doesn't know me anymore :( unbound with out a discussion before hand would be bad. However I'm all for an unbound fight against nids. I'd totally giggle while fighting a nidzilla list of your creation that wasn't hampered by bringing some troops. As long as it was basically your standard list with another big bug instead of your couple of troops! I'd prolly still do a battleforged list and we would see if you could actually table me. My drop pods would be able to score and not be denied :P.

 

It really is all about the golden rule. List building rule of thumb, would I enjoy switching my opponent lists and basically play the game twice? Once from each side of the board? Answer yes and it should work out fine.

[Raak]

Jon get used to limitations in sixth.

 

Yeah...I'm not feeling especially worried about it; just happy with the game, the new edition and am waiting to see what happens.

[Raak]

Jimminy Crickets people - Has anyone actually walked through or even played a game of 7e yet?

 

I only ask because I just played a 1750  with a really nice gentleman and IT'S NOT THAT BAD. I'm seeing tons of test game beta on the net from Portland to Blaine - 98% of it is commentary on tactics and changes; not too much whining.

 

Now, I'm not a rules/tactical 40k genius but at the risk of sounding simplistic - it just doesn't seem to be that bad to me. Sorry.  Granted ,I was playing with 1750 of someone elses daemons and he had already darn near memorized the new book so I didn't have to think a whole lot but that allowed me time to see what was different (He was kind enough to let me proxy a few things to make my trusty old 3 Herald Dog Screamer) but I did manage to bring about 500 extra points on the board and it didn't make a damn bit of difference for me it this particular case (Space Wolves and other things).

 

I guess I'm just saying - Lets play some games!!

[Raak]

It really is all about the golden rule. List building rule of thumb, would I enjoy switching my opponent lists and basically play the game twice? Once from each side of the board? Answer yes and it should work out fine.

 

True, True but I asked myself with all seriousness and If I brought a beatface list and Joe Blow brought a slightly meaner beatface list I'd truly just switch and play - whatevs! - were pushing plastic for fun right?

 

Now... if Joe Blow brings an 9 flying Hive Tyrants as his list then sure, I'll just smile shake his hand and look for my next game. I think (for me at least) It took one rage quit over an unmatched list to learn that the solution is to fight like King Leonidas and learn something if you can while you loose or just shake it off - shake hands and move on to one of the 10000 games we can all play

[Raak]

After browsing the FAQs I am standing even more steadfastly behind my previous statements in support of 7e. Especially in light of Intrizic's sage reminder that we have 6-12 months for the community to stabilize this edition.

[Raak]

The reason is just like Reece has said limit first and as you open up the restrictions it is easier to swallow. I'm all for just playing whatever with a pregame discussion but if you are looking at traveling for tournaments there are a couple of obvious abuses that will need looking at warp charges are one.

 

Reece is a great source! I chatted with him yesterday but he said they're doing their level best to break this ed in every way possible so I think FrontLine is hitting this thing from all angles <makes sense>.

 

I feel it's mostly the people who have 2+ editions under their belt that this is hard for. In other words, I have less time/emotion invested in the progression of the game from 1st through 7th than most of the players @ DTG.

[intrizic]

I'm still reading through the rules, so I say this with a small boulder of salt, sea salt actually, but I think the line between bound and unbound lists in some ways is a very thin line anyway with detachments.  For me, what I see the most is that how lists are built has CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY, it is no longer codex vs codex, it is now collection vs. collection.  This is something the warhamsters struggled with last edition and until it's embraced will continue to struggle with.  Of all the people I saw adapt to this, I think Andy adapted the best.  He kept the army he knows and loves and slowly made changes to it to bring it in line with 6th.  I expect he'll do more of the same in 7th.

 

***Question: Can I take a new codex as an ally per each detachment or must all detachment allies be the same?

 

Are the psychic powers broke?  please define broken.  I don't have enough experience at this point to have an opinion, and neither should anyone else.  I have a knee jerk ARO, lol, but nothing to take to the bank yet.  Play some games, do your utmost to break the edition, come to Corey's Saturday events and make his life difficult by trying to break 7th, because in the end it's our experience, our time on the table experiencing the game and not on the forums playing arm chair general that will have the most beneficial contribution to not only our enjoyment of the new edition but how our club embraces the new edition, which IMO is important 

[Raak]

I'm still reading through the rules, so I say this with a small boulder of salt, sea salt actually, but I think the line between bound and unbound lists in some ways is a very thin line anyway with detachments.  For me, what I see the most is that how lists are built has CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY, it is no longer codex vs codex, it is now collection vs. collection.  This is something the warhamsters struggled with last edition and until it's embraced will continue to struggle with.  Of all the people I saw adapt to this, I think Andy adapted the best.  He kept the army he knows and loves and slowly made changes to it to bring it in line with 6th.  I expect he'll do more of the same in 7th.

 

***Question: Can I take a new codex as an ally per each detachment or must all detachment allies be the same?

 

Are the psychic powers broke?  please define broken.  I don't have enough experience at this point to have an opinion, and neither should anyone else.  I have a knee jerk ARO, lol, but nothing to take to the bank yet.  Play some games, do your utmost to break the edition, come to Corey's Saturday events and make his life difficult by trying to break 7th, because in the end it's our experience, our time on the table experiencing the game and not on the forums playing arm chair general that will have the most beneficial contribution to not only our enjoyment of the new edition but how our club embraces the new edition, which IMO is important 

 

This  ^

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bingo!