Another OFCC Ruling needed

[wisetiger7]

Regarding The Curse of Anraheir

"The Curse of Anraheir is a hex with range of 36". The target unit suffers a -1 penalty to its To Hit rolls (to both its shooting and close combat attacks) until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. In addition, the unit treats all terrain (other than impassable terrain) as dangerous terrain and will fail Dangerous Terrain tests on a 1 or 2, rather than a 1. The Wizard can choose to extend the range of this spell to 72". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 13+." [bRB page 165]

Regarding Dangerous Terrain

"Some areas of terrain are incredibly treacherous and present a very real risk to life and limb. When a model marches, charges, flees, overruns or pursues into or through an area of dangerous terrain, it is called upon to take a Dangerous Terrain test - roll a D6. On a 2-6, the model successfully negotiates the dangers of the terrain and reaches its destination safe and sound. If a 1 is rolled, however, the model has suffered a terrible mishap and suffers a wound with no armor saves allowed... As such, cavalry, monstrous cavalry and chariots treat all terrain other than open ground as being dangerous terrain, as described above. A chariot that fails a Dangerous Terrain test suffers D6 wounds instead of 1." [bRB page 117]

Regarding Open Ground

"Open terrain is the most prevalent type of battlefield terrain and thus the 'default' setting - any terrain not specifically classed as something else is to be treated as open ground. All the rules as presented thus far assume that your game is being played on open terrain - grassy fields, sandy flats, sun-parched earth, and so on. It therefore doesn't affect the game, and we don't need to provide any further detail." [brb page 116]

Regarding Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance

"Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance is a hex spell with a range of 18". The target unit suffers -D3 to its Movement (to a minimum of 1) and treats all terrain (even open ground) as Dangerous Terrain, testing every time it moves (including when charging, fleeing, pursuing, moving compulsorily, etc.) until the start of the caster's next Magic phase. The Wizard can instead choose to extend the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 13+." [Tomb Kings AB page 61]

So...

Let's say there is a unit of cavalry (Dragon Princes) on open ground. Curse of Anraheir has been cast on it. Let's also assume there is a forest a couple inches in front of it. On the other side of the forest, there is another forest a couple inches away, which, nestled within, is an enemy unit (Wildwood Rangers).

 

Now let's say the Dragon Princes charge the Wildwood Rangers, and make the distance. How many Dangerous Terrain checks do they have to take? By RAW it would be 4. [see below for graphic]

 

As stated in Curse, "the unit treats all terrain (other than impassable terrain) as dangerous terrain". Open Ground (interchangeable with Open Terrain) is a form of terrain, as evidenced in its rule above, and further reinforced by the submission of the Dangerous Terrain rule that states "all terrain other than open ground", which identifies open ground as terrain. This would mean that it would take a test on the Open Ground as it is moving into or through Open Ground, then into or through the first forest, then into or through Open Ground again, then finally, into or through the second forest which houses the charged enemy unit within. That's 4 checks, ladies and gentlemen, all of which fail on a 1 or 2. I hate GW.

 

I bring up the Tomb Kings spell because it piles on the fact that yes, open ground should be considered terrain as it states "...treats all terrain (even open ground)..." Where some might consider the spell's wording to indicate that Open Ground embodies a separate entity than the other terrain, I'd like to indicate that the use of the word 'even' in this context is used to emphasize the inclusive nature relative to other terrain. I'd like to reiterate that Curse states that the only type of terrain that is not treated as dangerous terrain is impassable terrain, affirming the inclusivity of Open Terrain.

 

So the questions that arise from these rules is three-fold:

 

1) Is Open Ground/Open Terrain considered to be terrain?

If so, 2) Is a unit moving over Open Ground/Open Terrain subject to Dangerous Terrain checks if under Curse of Anraheir?

If so, 3) How many checks does it take in the aforementioned scenario?

[Raindog]

1) The Curse makes open terrain turn into dangerous terrain.

 

2) Two dangerous terrain tests would be made. For cavalry models, they would take one test and fails on 1-2's one the formerly open ground, and on 1-2's in the woods.

 

3) On the third question, I would see it as 3 test. First, the Open Ground creates one test. The wood is the second test. Going into the same area of open ground would not cause a test, since the unit already tested for it in that phase. The third test would be going into the second wood.

[Drak]

raindog, why would the Calvary fail the open terrain dangerous test on a 1? the spell itself says 1 or 2.

[Raindog]

raindog, why would the Calvary fail the open terrain dangerous test on a 1? the spell itself says 1 or 2.

My error and fixed.

[Drak]

found the following on my vamps forum.

 

Previously, people noted that blank table counts as "open terrain", which is listed as a type of "terrain", which mean technically that you treated the ENTIRE BOARD as dangerous terrain.

 

The new ruling in WD claims you now only treat actual terrain pieces, as in physical things which are not blank table, as Dangerous Terrain.

 

this may need futher investigating.

 

upon further investigation in my part this was only a battle report comment, which I have been informed is not a reliable source.

[King Mekhet]

found the following on my vamps forum.

 

Previously, people noted that blank table counts as "open terrain", which is listed as a type of "terrain", which mean technically that you treated the ENTIRE BOARD as dangerous terrain.

 

The new ruling in WD claims you now only treat actual terrain pieces, as in physical things which are not blank table, as Dangerous Terrain.

 

this may need futher investigating.

 

upon further investigation in my part this was only a battle report comment, which I have been informed is not a reliable source.

 

The WD is not a ruling; it's just one guy's opinion. Until it's in an official FAQ it's open to interpretation, and the person in WD's interpretation is wrong based on the clear RAW. Curse makes the unit treat ALL terrain as DT, and "open ground" is a type of terrain. 

[dkieft]

 

The WD is not a ruling; it's just one guy's opinion. Until it's in an official FAQ it's open to interpretation, and the person in WD's interpretation is wrong based on the clear RAW. Curse makes the unit treat ALL terrain as DT, and "open ground" is a type of terrain. 

One guy's opinion that happens to be a more balanced and fun (for the other guy) than the unfortunate RAW interpitation. But never mind having fun or balance this is OFCC! Whole table it is!!!! Woot!!!!  (I may or may not have just kicked some guy into a pit)

[King Mekhet]

One guy's opinion that happens to be a more balanced and fun (for the other guy) than the unfortunate RAW interpitation. But never mind having fun or balance this is OFCC! Whole table it is!!!! Woot!!!!  (I may or may not have just kicked some guy into a pit)

 

It's hardly an overpowered spell. Even with the RAW interpretation it's just final trans that only does one wound and allows ward/regen saves, and only affects you if you march/charge/flee. It's no purple sun.

[dkieft]

It's hardly an overpowered spell. Even with the RAW interpretation it's just final trans that only does one wound and allows ward/regen saves, and only affects you if you march/charge/flee. It's no purple sun.

I am not sure the base casting of the spell, but with the overpowered version being 13+ I imagine it is under 10. pretty easy to cast. While it may not have the damage potential of Purple Sun, but it does prevent a unit from playing war hammer that turn which is is a pretty powerful effect. What I mean by "prevent a unit from playing warhammer" is basically that you can't do what you need to do in a game with that unit that turn... you fight less effectively (-1 to hit) AND if you and to do more than a base move (which is I'd say about 90% of the moves you do in Warhammer) then you scoop 1/3 of the unit off the table and make a panc test (baring the few saves you might have).

 

Oh no, it is no Purple Sun, it can also be cast with half the dice and low risk to the wizard. Ruling that "Open Terrain becomes dangerous" for the spell makes it very powerful, while Ruling that "Terrain features other placed on the table (as in not open ground) become dangerous" to me feels like about the right power for this type and casting level of spell in my opinion.

 

Also, while RAW, we all know that GW did not even consider this interpretation of their plainly written rule.... they are terrible at rules... which is weird, but true.

[King Mekhet]

I am not sure the base casting of the spell, but with the overpowered version being 13+ I imagine it is under 10. pretty easy to cast. While it may not have the damage potential of Purple Sun, but it does prevent a unit from playing war hammer that turn which is is a pretty powerful effect. What I mean by "prevent a unit from playing warhammer" is basically that you can't do what you need to do in a game with that unit that turn... you fight less effectively (-1 to hit) AND if you and to do more than a base move (which is I'd say about 90% of the moves you do in Warhammer) then you scoop 1/3 of the unit off the table and make a panc test (baring the few saves you might have).

 

Oh no, it is no Purple Sun, it can also be cast with half the dice and low risk to the wizard. Ruling that "Open Terrain becomes dangerous" for the spell makes it very powerful, while Ruling that "Terrain features other placed on the table (as in not open ground) become dangerous" to me feels like about the right power for this type and casting level of spell in my opinion.

 

Also, while RAW, we all know that GW did not even consider this interpretation of their plainly written rule.... they are terrible at rules... which is weird, but true.

 

Perhaps the effect is disproportionate to the casting cost, but it is still unarguably how the spell operates as written. Why nerf Curse with a houserule when there is a myriad of other things that need it more?

 

 

Also I don't think it's as bad as you're saying. The TK spell Usirian's Incantation of Vengeance casts on a 10/13 for 18"/36" and debuffs movement in addition to the DT effects. Also note that Curse only operates when you march, charge, flee, or pursue, but NOT make a normal move, whereas Vengeance works when you move at all (and it explicitly states that open terrain is included in "terrain"). You get ward saves and regen against it as well, and it's only causing a single to anything except chariots. It's comparable to Curse of Years from the Lore of Vampires, which casts on a 12+ (which is RiP and gets stronger every turn).

[Lion of Flanders]

Forgive me if there is a thread with this stuff in it already, but here's a question:

 

For the Kill Mr/Ms Lucky scenario, would we be correct to interpret the "reroll a charge/compulsory, etc move" as a roll for a move made by Mr./Ms. Lucky's unit (as opposed to any friendly unit)?

 

Please clarify.....

[Drak]

the reroll is good for any one dice you roll during the phase. the only factor that mr lucky plays is to determine if you get that one reroll by his being alive still. it's one reroll PER phase for each player who still has his mr lucky alive.

[Lion of Flanders]

To clarify my question, I am referring to Mr./Ms. Lucky grant #2 which addresses a reroll of a movement roll in addition to grant #1 which grants a general reroll each player turn.

[wisetiger7]

I understand the confusion. Points 2-4 are just examples of point 1, and are not in addition to point 1. Point 1 is all that matters. Each player with a Mr. Lucky on the board gets to reroll any one dice in each phase in each player's turn. Period. 

[Drak]

#1 is the rule that trumps all others for my lucky. ANY d6 can be rerolled by EACH player during EACH phase of EACH players turn as long as your mr lucky is alive.

 

this means player 1's turn and he declares a charge with a terror causing monster, player two fails his leadership check and chooses to reroll one of the dice. the new result total passss. player one then fails his charge and rerolls one dice and then also passes with the new total. both players have used their one reroll for this phase.

 

then player one rolls for winds of magic. he is ok with his total. but on the first spell he tries he miscasts, and chooses to reroll one of the 6's. he rolls another six, dang, still a miscast. player one then rolls for another spell, player two rolls to dispel and fails, chooses to reroll one of the dice and the new total is successful to dispell. both players have again used their one reroll this phase.

 

in the shooting phase player rolls for his catapult. one artillery and the scatter. he gets an 2 on the artillery and a scatter away from his target on the scatter. looking at the result he sees he could reroll the artillery dice and if he gets a 6 or higher he will still hit an enemy unit (just not the one he was aiming for) and if he rerolls the scatter he might hit his first target. he chooses to reroll the artillery dice and get an 8, hitting the different unit. player two has a character that gets hit, rolls his look out sir and fails, he chooses to reroll the look out sir and the new result passes.

 

etc etc etc.

 

#2 and #3 have been clarified by Raindog to be examples of what players might choose to reroll. NOT limitations of what can be rerolled. it is literally any one D6 per phase for EACH player.

 

hope this helps. (mr lucky makes for a LOT of rerolling)

 

however... it HASNT been clarified if mr lucky allows a player to reroll d6 while setting up the game (ie rolling to see who gets first turn). my assumption is no, as that is not occurring during a "phase".

[Lion of Flanders]

So.....

 

If a player's Mr./Ms. Lucky is alive, that player gets to reroll one d6 from one of his/her dice rolls in each phase of both players turns.

 

If correct, that is significantly different to what is written in the rules document. It's also much simpler and easier to understand, I would think.

[MexicanNinja]

Lion, yes, you are allowed a single D6 reroll per phase if lucky is alive. It's the power of lucky and why lucky needs to live as long as possible. Lucky alone brings a valuable asset to the table. It's even more potent when someone loses lucky but their opponent still has lucky.

[Drak]

yes the summary you provided is easier, and accurate. I think that when they posted the rules way back when they used an 'old script' which has caused some confusion and a fair share of questions.

[quickfuze]

Okay so here is a question, Nagash can store dice in his own magic phase.  Chalice of Darkness says to remove D3 from the dice pool....how are we going to do the timing of these interactions.  So CD player says I am going to use chalice, can the other player in response say he is going to store dice?  What about the other way..Nagash says he will store and CD says I will remove.  How do we resolve the effects?  Also if Nagash pulls dice out of the staff to use on a spell and the CD players states a chalice roll, can the Nagash player state he will just not take the dice out then?  Lots of weird timing interactions on this combo

[WarlordGhrom]

Nagash isn't allowed in the OFCC team games.  So QF your question won't come in play :)

[MexicanNinja]

Nagash also isn't allowed for the open, as end times isn't allowed this year. Good question though.