Beginner player new to Chaos

[Ether]

Hey N.W. 40k'ers 

One of the Guardian Games employees told me about this group after I stopped by asking where to get in touch with the Portland 40k players.

 

I recently decided to jump back into miniwargaming after a 5 year hiatus. 

I am still very rusty and with the 7th edition having just come out I'm a bit lost. 

 

I picked up the new rule book and happened to come across a cheap CSM 7th ed codex. 

Always wanted to play chaos (I played tyranid when I first started) and was able to pick up some mini's on ebay cheap.

 

So far I have 

 

1 Lord/sorc (dark vengance)

30 x cultists

1 x helbrute 

9 x Khorne zerkers

5 x CSM

5 x Chosen

1 x rhino

 

I was wondering if anyone could maybe help point me in the right direction with my army. I am really into the Khorne and World Eaters fluff even if they arn't the most competitive CSM list right now. 

 

I was also thinking once I get a solid lower level army together I could meet up with some people at G.G. to play a couple easy games with so I can become more familiar with the rules again.

 

Thanks 

-Ether

 

 

 

[AbusePuppy]

Maulerfiends and Chaos Spawn would be an excellent supplement to the sort of list it sounds like you want to run- they are both very fast and very punchy. Getting a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne, Axe of Blinding Fury, and Juggernaut of Khorne would also be a strong inclusion- he can keep pace with the Spawn and puts out a pretty absurd number of attacks. (I wouldn't bother giving the Spawn Mark of Khorne, since it doesn't really do anything for them- take one unit with no Mark for the Lord to join and two others with Mark of Nurgle for added resilience.)

 

Troops are always a bit of a sticking point for CSM; probably your best bet is just a combination of vanilla Cultists and Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne and BP/CCW. Sticking them in Rhinos isn't an awful plan, since they can protect you and get Dirge Casters; you could potentially run them on foot as well. An Icon of Fury helps their hitting power a lot and can insure you get into combat, but isn't strictly necessary. Giving them some special weapons, probably Meltaguns, is pretty mandatory though- you need ways to break the enemy's tanks and then assault after.

 

Depending on how your Chosen are equipped, probably the best use for them is to run them as Aspiring Champions to lead your CSM squads; the Khorne Berzerkers are probably best just used as additional CSM, which probably won't raise too many issues with folks. Sadly, the Helbrute is not particularly great- although it's not completely worthless thanks to the new formations that are available. The "take three Helbrutes and they can Deep Strike and have Rage" one is pretty alright, since it lets you get those Multimeltas/Autocannons into better range and firing arcs; the "two Cultists plus one Helbrute" one is also handy, since it can give the Helbrute an improved cover save and stops the Cultists from running away after taking a few casualties.

[Guest]

Hey N.W. 40k'ers 

One of the Guardian Games employees told me about this group after I stopped by asking where to get in touch with the Portland 40k players.

 

I recently decided to jump back into miniwargaming after a 5 year hiatus. 

I am still very rusty and with the 7th edition having just come out I'm a bit lost. 

 

I picked up the new rule book and happened to come across a cheap CSM 7th ed codex. 

Always wanted to play chaos (I played tyranid when I first started) and was able to pick up some mini's on ebay cheap.

 

So far I have 

 

1 Lord/sorc (dark vengance)

30 x cultists

1 x helbrute 

9 x Khorne zerkers

5 x CSM

5 x Chosen

1 x rhino

 

I was wondering if anyone could maybe help point me in the right direction with my army. I am really into the Khorne and World Eaters fluff even if they arn't the most competitive CSM list right now. 

 

I was also thinking once I get a solid lower level army together I could meet up with some people at G.G. to play a couple easy games with so I can become more familiar with the rules again.

 

Thanks 

-Ether

The CSM army is quite flexible, but leans towards melee/short range combat as a focus.

 

Okay, so your rhino is going to disappoint when you try to use it as an assault transport. It doesn't work well like that. It can be impressive for points as a light ranged vehicle via the havoc launcher, or can be a nice AV threat with a combi-melta (The odds to kill things aren't great with just one shot, but the opponent will fear it far more than they should). I find them lacking in the CSM army as dedicated transports. You can use them to good effect as portable walls, or as temporary shelters from enemy blast weapons.

 

CSM rhinos work very well with jump infantry, as you could be able to completely conceal the jumpers behind the rhino, and as they move the same speed, you can inch your way to melee range. A vindicator or mauler fiend would complement this strategy nicely.

 

Another option is body heavy, with CSM infantry squads having very impressive squad sizes. This one can add up in model $ cost quickly, but is typically underused in 40k which can give you an edge.

 

Your bezerkers will probably disappoint. Mostly depends if you can get them into assault or if they die on their way. Bezerkers can be one of the harder armies to lose with, given that its a crushing defeat, more often than not. You may consider fielding them as chaos marines with mark of khorne, instead of bezerkers, just for that larger max squad size or for the special weapon access.

 

Personally, I've been getting good results with "come the apocalypse" allied SM in pods. The pods grant the distraction I need to get my CSM into short/melee range. I'm one of many that's quite annoyed that we still lack CSM drop pod access.

[Ether]

So something like this

 

- Juggernaut 

5 spawn

 

- Khorne lord, axe

9 x CCW/BP CSM

Rhino, Dirge caster

 

- Aspiring champ, dual LC

9 CSM CCW/BP

Rhino, Dirge caster

 

- Aspiring champ, power maul

9 CCW/BG CSM

Rhino, Dirge Caster

 

- 10 cultists

 

-Helcult

 

-Maulerfiend 

 

As for special weapons, can Plasma effectively tank bust, or should I strictly run with Meltas?

 

I want to pick up a heldrake at some point as well. 

I  also may have just picked up some Obliterates for cheap on ebay. Deep striking Oblits seem to be really popular in CSM lists lately. 

[Guest]

So something like this

 

- Juggernaut 

5 spawn

 

- Khorne lord, axe

9 x CCW/BP CSM

Rhino, Dirge caster

 

- Aspiring champ, dual LC

9 CSM CCW/BP

Rhino, Dirge caster

 

- Aspiring champ, power maul

9 CCW/BG CSM

Rhino, Dirge Caster

 

- 10 cultists

 

-Helcult

 

-Maulerfiend 

 

As for special weapons, can Plasma effectively tank bust, or should I strictly run with Meltas?

 

I want to pick up a heldrake at some point as well. 

I  also may have just picked up some Obliterates for cheap on ebay. Deep striking Oblits seem to be really popular in CSM lists lately. 

Okay, so you don't want plasma on the infantry squads, this is simply because they can't assault after rapid firing and you seem to intend to assault ASAP. Same issue with the rhinos, you can't assault out of them. So, you'll advance up in the rhinos, get out, and then get shot up - your ability to survive getting shot will determine if your assault army functions or not.

 

On the rhinos, those can take combi-plasma to good effect, since the rhino can move and fire.

[Ether]

Okay, so you don't want plasma on the infantry squads, this is simply because they can't assault after rapid firing and you seem to intend to assault ASAP. Same issue with the rhinos, you can't assault out of them. So, you'll advance up in the rhinos, get out, and then get shot up - your ability to survive getting shot will determine if your assault army functions or not.

 

On the rhinos, those can take combi-plasma to good effect, since the rhino can move and fire.

 

Okay that makes sense with the plasma.

 

If you can't assault after disembarking what would be a good way to keep my guys safe for a turn?

Should I bring a sorc to cast invisible? Do rhino smoke bombs cover units outside of them as well? 

 

Also the unit can fire their bolt guns and possible melta after disembarking right? 

[WestRider]

Melta is also far better at blowing up Vehicles these days, with the very forgiving Vehicle Damage Chart.

 

Yes, you can shoot freely after disembarking, just not Charge. Depending on the situation, you either try to unload enough stuff in your opponent's face at once that some of it's going to live to Charge, or get out behind LoS-blocking Terrain (or at least in Cover). Sometimes it's possible to disembark behind your Rhinos and use them to screen your Infantry for the danger turn, but sometimes that'll leave you too far away to be able to make enough of your Charges next Turn.

 

One MaulerFiend is just going to die. Those things are too scary and fast for people not to shoot. Take a pair, or for maximum fun, 3 of them.

 

Also, consider Meltabombs on your Aspiring Champions. You won't always need them, but when you do, you REALLY need them.

[Guest]

Okay that makes sense with the plasma.

 

If you can't assault after disembarking what would be a good way to keep my guys safe for a turn?

Should I bring a sorc to cast invisible? Do rhino smoke bombs cover units outside of them as well? 

 

Also the unit can fire their bolt guns and possible melta after disembarking right? 

Smoke bombs are for the rhino only and are very limited in value. Main issue is using the smokes means not shooting and not moving flat out. You can also get a similar cover save simply by being in cover (like behind a wall for vehicles).

 

You can't reliably get invisibility, so I wouldn't count on it when designing an army. It's a good idea otherwise.

 

To keep the guys safe, two general approaches: Either *somehow* make them durable enough to survive enemy shooting, or provide enough distractions where the opponent redirects their shooting to a different threat.

 

In example, the CSM list I'm working on features a list with a SM drop pod that lands turn 1, disembarks a melta/flamer team. At the same time, I've got dual defilers, a helbrute and a mauler fiend all advancing at once. My opponent could kill any one of these elements, but I'm gambling that they can't kill all of them and if any make it to turn 2, they will be devastating.

 

My list goes with the distraction approach.

 

In the past, I did a list with two full 20-man units of thousand sons. The damage output is lacking, but their tough to dislodge. I know, not khorne, but it's an example of making a unit more durable. In this case, the unit just walks to combat, no rhinos.

 

For khorne, another approach would be a land raider, as you can assault out of those. Land raiders aren't amazing in the CSM army when compared to their SM versions, but they are the only assault transport and are pretty impressive still. Land raiders will eat up your points and opponents will put extra effort in bringing them down (like a trophy kill).

 

Personally, I'd suggest getting a max size unit of khorne bezerkers or khorne marines and running them behind a moving wall of empty rhinos. If you end up taking marines with mark of khorne, instead of bezerkers, be sure to add a character to make them fearless (That chaplain is excellent here).

[AbusePuppy]

Meltabomb/Power Sword is a pretty decent setup for an Aspiring Champion, yeah. You can also go with a Combimelta/plasma/flamer on him for a bit of extra punch the turn you disembark, if you prefer.

 

And West is absolutely correct on the Maulerfiend. They are a very aggressive unit that forces the enemy to shoot at them- this means that a lone one will just be the first thing to die, but in combination with other fast units (like additional Maulerfiends and Spawn) the enemy simply won't have enough guns to get rid of them all before they get to punching.

 

Not being able to assault after disembarking is really obnoxious, but there's not really much you can do about it. Depending on the situation you may be able to disembark behind the Rhino itself, using the chassis to shield you from enemy fire, but other times you may need to move that full 6" forward to get into assault range. Mostly what you're banking on is the other guy being too busy dealing with all the other stuff you dropped in his face to have much left to shoot at the guys getting out of transports.

[Ether]

Thank you so much for all the advice guys,

I finally have a pretty good mental image of what I want my army to be.

 

I'll be stopping by league night at Guardian Games tomorrow to observe some more games hopefully some chaos ones.

Anyone else going to be there?

[Guest]

Thank you so much for all the advice guys,

I finally have a pretty good mental image of what I want my army to be.

 

I'll be stopping by league night at Guardian Games tomorrow to observe some more games hopefully some chaos ones.

Anyone else going to be there?

I might be there. I'm the really tall guy...

[dashneeb]

I run a khornate army that does relatively well.  Mind you, I haven't built this specific list since sixth, so things might change?

 

Khorne lord on juggy with axe, 4+ invul, plasma pistol

 

Bezerker squad(8) with Rhino w/dirge caster x3

 

Spawn x2 (Lord attaches with)

 

Helldrake x2

 

Maulerfiend x2 with the Magma cutters I believe

 

Aegis defense line

 

Basically your first turn you run your zerkers up out of their rhinos to the aegis, and then advance from there.  Everything in the list moves 12" the first turn, a lot continues to move that fast afterwards.

[Guest]

hell drakes got minor nerfs in form of an FAQ saying they have hull shooting weapons and given that vector strike now does less hits, even if at higher ap. I think the fortification can only deploy in your deployment zone now, though that one I will need to re-read to be certain.

[Lord Hanaur]

Rhinos are cheap portable terrain that just happens to move your unit 18" if you move flat out in turn 1.  Still wont be charging til turn 3, but useful for that and also for saving your troops from unnecessary reserves with firepower until you can get the jump on them.

[dashneeb]

Depending on the setup, my troops were out on first turn almost every game.  Ready to charge turn 2.

[Lord Hanaur]

which is also fine.  Point was, Rhinos are very nice to have.

[BrainFireBob]

Given Champions of Chaos, I am moving my champs to 1 lightning claw or power axe + m. Bombs

[Guest]

Given Champions of Chaos, I am moving my champs to 1 lightning claw or power axe + m. Bombs

Why....?

 

So you want your champion to either have less attacks or swing last?

 

I'd go bolt pistol and power sword, chain axe+BP and melta bomb, or bolt pistol and power maul (especially if the champion lacks krak grenades - looking at you thousand sons champion...). Even the basic marine with BP+CCW+frag+krak is pretty impressive.

 

I will note that those chain axes are often overlooked.

 

I find power axes, and other unwieldy weapons, to often result in the death of my "must-challenge" champion. You can get around it with a unit with multiple characters, but I'd just avoid the whole issue and not take unwieldy weapons on models that must challenge and are single wound and lack invulnerable saves.

 

I'm not including melta bombs as unwieldy weapons - those are, but they are also amazing when you need them.

 

As for specialist weapons taken in singular, I'd only do that if I want a combi-weapon in the other hand (or storm shield for my marines). Almost always, that extra swing is better than a re-roll to wound via the lightning claw. If the claw were at higher strength than marine 4 (like with furious charge) or if used in conjunction to a dark apostle, then it has merit, but most of the time, hitting the target is more important, or the re-roll to wound wouldn't help anyway because the target is very tough or a vehicle.

[Guest]

Oh, for classic example of what to expect for challenges:

 

5-man SM scouts. 4x CCW+BP and a veteran sarge with a power sword, BP and MB (85pts). They charge your berserkers (gutsy scouts, I know). If you don't challenge, they do. Same initiative, Mr. Scout Sarge has 4 power weapon attacks on the charge at I4 (same), with WS4 vs your 5, half still hit, with the same strength as your toughness, 1 wound is inflicted and your champion dies...

 

Now, at the same time, you've got your Khorne champion. With counter charge you've got 3 attacks with a specialist weapon, or 4 with a non-specialist. You have no invulnerable save access, no ability to strike first, and otherwise have a pretty sure kill on the scout sarge. In this example, you hit on 3s no matter what. Basic BP+CCW will hit at least 2 times, wounding at least once, and killing at slightly better than 50% of the time. A power maul or chain axe will ensure death and deny armor, as would a power sword or lightning claw. A power fist or axe will not get get to swing...

 

As for the rest of the squad, really depends if you purchased chain axes on the other members of your unit. Either way, you'll probably kill most of them this turn, resulting in either tied or locked combat, followed by getting another member or two killed by the sarge with the power sword. You may lose a few to the base scouts, given that you've the number of attacks this first round.

 

Now, on the one hand, if that squad is pretty bare, it's only a 105pt khorne unit losing key components to a 85pt sm unit - humiliating on principle, but not a huge set back.

 

This all assumes the scouts get the charge. Bezerkers will further butcher the scouts in assault if they get the charge, but you still have pretty good odds that you'll lose your unit champion to the scout sarge's sword. Big issue here is that they all strike at the same time and you must accept the challenge. If my scouts don't mind dying for the greater good, I can kill your unit champion without major losses.

[Ether]

That was a lot to chew threw, but I appreciate it.

Pretty bummed that the dual LC isnt a viable choice (just about finished painting the Chosen model). 

 

As for Champions. Can I use the DV Chosen model with the boltgun and powermaul as a champ for one of the units? I would give him melta bombs too. 

 

 

I dont have any models with Chain axes so it will be strictly bolt pistols and chain swords, or boltguns on my troops.

Another question, I know BP can assault but can a Boltgun assault as well? 

 

 

Ill be at GG tonight watching games.

Long hair, Septum piercing, camo shorts.

 

Names Ethan.

[WestRider]

Yeah, I'm bummed about dual LCs as well. They look awesome, but they're way, way too expensive. I do think that a single Lightning Claw can be worthwhile on Khornate dudes, where you're getting enough Attacks on the Charge that the re-rolls are worth as much or more than an extra Attack. But another 15 Points for just one more Attack at that point is too much.

 

Not sure quite what you mean about Bolt Pistols and Bolters. You can Charge after firing Pistols, but not after firing Rapid Fire weapons like Bolters, if that was what you were asking.

 

The Bolter/Power Maul dude is a perfectly legit Champ. Don't forget that Aspiring Champions start with Bolter, Bolt Pistol, AND CCW, so he's still got a Bolt Pistol to give him an extra Attack with the Power Maul as well.

[BrainFireBob]

Oh, for classic example of what to expect for challenges:

 

5-man SM scouts. 4x CCW+BP and a veteran sarge with a power sword, BP and MB (85pts). They charge your berserkers (gutsy scouts, I know). If you don't challenge, they do. Same initiative, Mr. Scout Sarge has 4 power weapon attacks on the charge at I4 (same), with WS4 vs your 5, half still hit, with the same strength as your toughness, 1 wound is inflicted and your champion dies...

 

Now, at the same time, you've got your Khorne champion. With counter charge you've got 3 attacks with a specialist weapon, or 4 with a non-specialist. You have no invulnerable save access, no ability to strike first, and otherwise have a pretty sure kill on the scout sarge. In this example, you hit on 3s no matter what. Basic BP+CCW will hit at least 2 times, wounding at least once, and killing at slightly better than 50% of the time. A power maul or chain axe will ensure death and deny armor, as would a power sword or lightning claw. A power fist or axe will not get get to swing...

 

As for the rest of the squad, really depends if you purchased chain axes on the other members of your unit. Either way, you'll probably kill most of them this turn, resulting in either tied or locked combat, followed by getting another member or two killed by the sarge with the power sword. You may lose a few to the base scouts, given that you've the number of attacks this first round.

 

Now, on the one hand, if that squad is pretty bare, it's only a 105pt khorne unit losing key components to a 85pt sm unit - humiliating on principle, but not a huge set back.

 

This all assumes the scouts get the charge. Bezerkers will further butcher the scouts in assault if they get the charge, but you still have pretty good odds that you'll lose your unit champion to the scout sarge's sword. Big issue here is that they all strike at the same time and you must accept the challenge. If my scouts don't mind dying for the greater good, I can kill your unit champion without major losses.

 

If not for CoC, I'd agree with you.

 

As it stands, most unit champions are facing 1W models.

 

Wounds (Assuming base Aspiring Champ WS 4 Str 4 Attacks 2 has bolt pistol)

 

vs. WS4/5 T4 3+

                    Charged                    Charging

Claw:             0.75                          1.125

Sword:           0.75                          1

 

vs. WS4/5 T5 3+

 

Claw:             0.44                          0.67

Sword:           0.33                          0.66

 

I don't know about you, but that covers the bulk of what I face. Claw's better for my purposes at the same cost.

 

The axe is on units that accompany HQs, so there are multiple options available- or in the odd case I'm brangling with assault terminators.                          

[BrainFireBob]

Yeah, I'm bummed about dual LCs as well. They look awesome, but they're way, way too expensive. I do think that a single Lightning Claw can be worthwhile on Khornate dudes, where you're getting enough Attacks on the Charge that the re-rolls are worth as much or more than an extra Attack. But another 15 Points for just one more Attack at that point is too much.

 

Not sure quite what you mean about Bolt Pistols and Bolters. You can Charge after firing Pistols, but not after firing Rapid Fire weapons like Bolters, if that was what you were asking.

 

The Bolter/Power Maul dude is a perfectly legit Champ. Don't forget that Aspiring Champions start with Bolter, Bolt Pistol, AND CCW, so he's still got a Bolt Pistol to give him an extra Attack with the Power Maul as well.

 

Eh, think it might work for BTs.

[Guest]

If not for CoC, I'd agree with you.

 

As it stands, most unit champions are facing 1W models.

 

Wounds (Assuming base Aspiring Champ WS 4 Str 4 Attacks 2 has bolt pistol)

 

vs. WS4/5 T4 3+

                    Charged                    Charging

Claw:             0.75                          1.125

Sword:           0.75                          1

 

vs. WS4/5 T5 3+

 

Claw:             0.44                          0.67

Sword:           0.33                          0.66

 

I don't know about you, but that covers the bulk of what I face. Claw's better for my purposes at the same cost.

 

The axe is on units that accompany HQs, so there are multiple options available- or in the odd case I'm brangling with assault terminators.                          

I don't remember what CoC refers to...

 

As for T5 3+ armor and WS 4/5....bikes? Yeah, I guess if most of your challenges are against bikes, the LC does make more sense. The Maul could also work, as even with their save, your looking at retaining the bonus attack for the BP while dramatically decreasing the would roll needed.

 

vs. WS4/5 T4 3+

                    Charged                    Charging

Maul             0.83                          1.11

 

vs. WS4/5 T5 3+

 

Maul             0.66                          0.88

 

In this narrow use, I think the Mauls are best. They have a lot of short comings in practice, as players rolling above or below average for armor saves will dramatically alter their value. Re-rolls on armor saves will also make the maul dramatically less effective.

 

As for the swords, dunno, I like having more attacks. I agree that on paper and in your situation, the claw is better.

 

Agree with your use of axes.

 

I will note that a unit with furious charge, like khorne bezerkers, has increased value with Axes, mauls and power fists. Axes because it gains them a multi-attack krak grenade with ap2 and allows instant death on T3 creatures, mauls for the S7 multi-attack krak grenade, and fists for that S9 fist attack. The sword and claw do benefit, but I'd rather maximize strength if already going that route.

[Ether]

HQ

Lord, Axe of blind fury, Juggernaut, Mok, Sigil of Corruption, Veterans of the Long War

175pts

 

Demon Prince, Wings, black mace

230pts 

 

 

 

Troops

9 CCW/BP CSM, MoK

1 Asp. Champ, MoK, P. Maul, Melta Bombs

82pts

Rhino, Dirge Caster

40pts

 

9 CCW/BP CSM, MoK

1 Asp. Champ, MoK,P.  Axe, Melta Bombs

82pts

Rhino, Dirge Caster

40pts

 

9 CCW/BP CSM, MoK

1 Asp. Champ, MoK, P. Fist, Melta Bombs

82pts

Rhino, Dirge Caster

40pts

 

10 Cultists

50pts

 

Helcult

205

 

Fast Atk

5 Spawn, MoN

180pts

 

Heavy Support

Maulerfiend Magma cutters

125pts

 

Maulerfiend, Magma cutters

125pts

 

3 Obliterates MoN

88pts

 

***Edit I went back and fixed some points***

Total = 1544

 

 

I know you all advised against Power fist and Axe on champion, but its what I got for now.

 

It is very likely that I messed some of these points up, If you could point out what I missed that would be helpful.

Does this seem like an effective assault list?

 

I have all of the stuff except the Prince, the two maulerfiends, the Jugg for my lord, and I need 1 more rhino.