Assassin Dataslates

[fluger]

Not sure who has seen these yet, but the new Assassin dataslates are...interesting.  

 

1.  Vindicare.  I just think he's overpriced for what he does.  Virtually guaranteed to hit what he wants, but then they have LoS (even at -2) and then he either wounds on a 2+ and they get invuls, or he wounds on a 4+ and does d3 wounds and they get invuls, or he wounds on a 4+ and they get no invul.  So, it would take about 4 shots on average to put a wound on a farseer in a unit if going with the no-invul save shot.  That's really incredibly unimpressive.  His s10 shot vs vehicles is handy, but with just AP2, he only has a 1/6 chance to take it out in one shot.  About the best thing he's good at is shooting at basic MCs on the ground since he can hit reliably, and either go for the wound on a 2+ or else try for d3 wounds on a 4+.  So he's useful against RipTides and Wraithknights, which is nice.  He's more survivable now with longer range and 3W, but at 150 pts, I just can't see him killing enough to warrant inclusion in most lists.  

 

2.  Eversor.  They just can't figure this guy out.  So, this is a guy, that, on a charge, should kill 4 marines.  w00t.  Odds are if he charges into a 10 strong tactical marine squad, he'll eventually die.  That's substantially poopy.  He's kinda neat in that he can shoot his pistol a bunch and shoots it at full BS when assaulted, but, they are only bolt pistols or a 4+ to wound pistol?  He needed SOMETHING that was AP2 to be a real threat to anything.  Best thing he can do is take down MCs with poor armor saves since he has flesh bane with shred.  But, for his points!?  I just don't see it.  I think this guy needed some kind of special rule that could allow him to move essentially THROUGH units in melee to get to characters.  Even then, without AP2, he just isn't that threatening.  Just too expensive and weak to really be of any value.  Sad really.

 

3.  Callidus.  She has some neat tricks and definitely the one I'm most inclined to play.  Infiltrating up close and nuking things with a AP2, 4+ wounding flamer is pretty tight.  It's not the best thing ever, but it's nice.  She also helps out just by existing, re-rolling sieze is going to effect how your opponent deploys if they are going first, and the -3 to the first reserve roll (side-bar:  does that mean ALL the rolls the first time the reserve roll is made, or only the very first reserve roll?  One would be tremendous, the other would be cute, but pretty lame.) is neat.  She also has AP2 and rending and 3+ wounding.  Fairly useful all around, nice disruption.  

 

4.  Cullexus.  This is a hard counter to psychic dependent forces.  Cullexus is kinda neat, but the somewhat short range of the nullifying presence means it isn't impossible to deal with.  It certainly creates a "no-fly zone" for things like seer council, and the "all shots at BS1" really helps him stay alive, but, still.  That's a lot of points for something that isn't really that deadly and has a hyper-specific target.  

[fluger]

Overall, I think these units are pretty middling overall.  I could see the callidus being really useful if her -3 reserves ability works for the first full reserve roll as she REALLY hurts flyer armies or any army that relies on reserves (essentially the Anti Lord Hanaur unit).  Other than that, they just aren't lethal enough or survivable enough to really merit inclusion in most competitive lists IMO.  

[pretre]

Yeah, we've been chatting about the Culexus in another thread. Definitely interesting.

[fluger]

Any thoughts on how the Callidus' ability works?  Is it the whole roll, or just the first of the first.  

[pretre]

It's just the first unit they roll for.

 

"In addition, your opponent suffers -3 to the first Reserve Roll he makes during the game."

 

"At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is
being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls." Emphasis mine.

[fluger]

Yeah. Well then its just cute and not incredibly important. I still think the callous is the most consistently useful of the group.

[AbusePuppy]

I more or less agree with you in terms of the Vindicare for killing HQs, but like a lot of the things GW tries to convince you to do, that's actually a trap. The Vindi has always been best for gunning down Power Fist sergeants, heavy/special weapon troopers, and that sort of thing and that's still his main use- the fact that he gets Preferred Enemy is largely irrelevant. (Remember, though, that it will give him the rerolls if he shoots at the Warlord's squad, which can be useful.) Ignoring cover is a HUGE boost for him, since it means he no longer struggles to take out basic models of most types- hit on 2+, wound on 2+, guy is dead. He's still annoyingly short-ranged and fragile, though.

 

The Eversor is basically a perfect example of how GW screws up melee units. Yeah, okay, cool, he's got good CC stats, but he's never gonna get there even with his derpy 3d6" charge range because he's gotta run across the whole d*** field to get to the enemy and he's just a W3 4++ guy. Speed and survivability are what's important to melee units- hitting power is almost irrelevant beyond a basic level of functionality because most of the units you want to charge are terrible in a fight anyways. At least he got his explosion back.

 

Culexus is intriguing if only because he is the only way in the game to shut down buff spells with any degree of reliability. A Drop Pod or flyer seems like the natural way to make use of him, and there are a couple factions that can pull off those tricks so it's not a terrible idea. Anyone know the range on his gun? That's one tidbit I haven't heard yet. I don't think he's worth it except maybe as a very niche defense for lists that absolutely fold to 2+ rerollable armies, but the very fact that he exists puts a bit of a damper on them.

 

Callidus seems like the most viable of the four because she is essentially a great big package of utility abilities with a decent body attached to them. She helps with Seizing, annoys their reserves, and sneaks into a really inconvenient place on the battlefield where she can throw out AP2 templates and threaten charges with her nasty little CC weapons- if you have any decent amount of blocking terrain she could be quite annoying. I dunno whether she's really particularly viable, but she seems like she has some possibilities. Ugh, shame about the model, though.

[pretre]

Animus is 18"

"An animus speculum is a ranged weapon that is fired in the Psychic phase instead of the Shooting phase. Firing the animus speculum does not prevent the Culexus Assassin from Running or shooting another weapon at the same or a different target in the Shooting phase. The Animus Speculum can fire Snap Shots but cannot be used to make Overwatch attacks."

 

The only other ranged weapon is Psy-shock grenades though.

[fluger]

I more or less agree with you in terms of the Vindicare for killing HQs, but like a lot of the things GW tries to convince you to do, that's actually a trap. The Vindi has always been best for gunning down Power Fist sergeants, heavy/special weapon troopers, and that sort of thing and that's still his main use- the fact that he gets Preferred Enemy is largely irrelevant. (Remember, though, that it will give him the rerolls if he shoots at the Warlord's squad, which can be useful.) Ignoring cover is a HUGE boost for him, since it means he no longer struggles to take out basic models of most types- hit on 2+, wound on 2+, guy is dead. He's still annoyingly short-ranged and fragile, though.

Only thing I'll comment on is that the exitus rifle is now 72" range, so short range isn't a problem for him...at all...

 

Also, he's 150 pts, and, while killing your points worth isn't a great metric, for such a uni-task model, I like the exercise.  

 

He's had to kill 5 Lascannon-toting marines to kill more than his points.  Would, obviously, take 5 turns to do that.  

 

I just don't see him as all that effective for the points.  Any army that can bring him can do what he does a smidge better with something more versatile.  

[Guest]

Once again, I think the vindicare is a better tank hunter than any other role. He's S10 against vehicles and denies cover, so those jink-heavy skimmer armies are really hurt against this guy. He's not as broken as before, against tanks, so he'll struggle against AV14-15, especially if they have additional defenses (like venerable, mighty fortress, invulnerable saves and so forth).

 

In terms of stats, the vindicare gained a wound and lost the 6+ FNP. He'll still die to krak missiles. In terms of gains, I do think he got better, if only for the fact that he can embark on allied vehicles now (battle brothers...). He can also be psychically buffed.

 

The callidus got less confusing in terms of rules interactions. Gone is wounding on leadership weapon which often resulted in debates on how it functioned. As for her other abilities, I think she got much weaker, mostly due to new restrictions on her deployment. She can begin on the table where ever, but this is a gamble as she has no special ability to deny overwatch, nor to guarantee that she won't get shot up by the opponent when they go first (she does grant a re-roll to seize, but that's it). The callidus still suffers from not having a melee weapon that can reliably kill high toughness enemies, though the rending poisoned blades do help.

 

The eversor's rules make him much better than last edition, but really no better than the edition before. He's back to his intended value in the DH codex when it was new... In terms of value to an army, he's an offensive toolbox unit with no durability. He'd fit in perfectly with the dark eldar...

 

Culexus is discussed on that other thread.

 

I am surprised that GW didn't make an assassin for flying targets. I was half expecting the next version of the assassins to include an AA specialist in a 5th assassin school. GW's made a heavy flyer push, having an anti-flyer assassin would be fitting. Especially with daemon princes taking to the sky...

[Guest]

To elaborate on the callidus weakness. She's 3 deployment options:

 

Deploy normally.

Deploy in reserves and arrive on any table edge.

Infiltrate without restriction on where she starts.

 

First is pretty easy.

 

Second suffers because she can't assault when she arrives. So you'd either have a turn to move out of charge range, or to charge her with something she really doesn't want to be in assault with (like an infantry blob or a walker)

 

Third seems nice, but doesn't benefit from requiring snaps from reserves, so if you go second, she's dead if you deployed near the enemy. You also are at the mercy of the opponent if they go second in placing infiltrators/moving scouts. In example, she deploys to flame WS bikes and they scout move 12" from her position because scout moves happen after infiltrate in this edition. In this edition, vehicles can be conferred scout or infiltrate, so she may likely find herself boxed in with vehicles for turn 1.

[pretre]

She doesn't need to arrive from reserves to get the snap

"In either case, during the first game turn, or during the game turn in which the Callidus Assassin arrives from Reserves, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots when targeting her."

Also, who is going to deploy to flame scout bikes...? That's like me putting up a fence to keep away elderly disabled Sasquatches. :)

[fluger]

The callidus still suffers from not having a melee weapon that can reliably kill high toughness enemies, though the rending poisoned blades do help.

 

Wait, what?  She has 6 attacks on the charge that should be hitting on 3s and then wounding on 3s with rending against high toughness models.  Should be about 3 wounds on anything, with a good chance of one being a rend.  That's about as good as it gets.  

 

The only thing she's going to struggle against is vehicles, but rending REALLY helps in that regard as against AV10, all her erstwhile glances become pens.  

[Guest]

She doesn't need to arrive from reserves to get the snap

"In either case, during the first game turn, or during the game turn in which the Callidus Assassin arrives from Reserves, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots when targeting her."

 

Also, who is going to deploy to flame scout bikes...? That's like me putting up a fence to keep away elderly disabled Sasquatches. :)

Missed the first bit. More useful. Still, can't assault that turn.

 

Not scout bikes, scouting bikes. That would be the all-too-common WS biker armies with Khan and, the less common, Ravenwing bikers. Not to mention, vehicles with scout, or dedicated transports with a scouting unit embarked.

 

EDIT: Oh, add the other scouting bikes and jetbikes from the other armies. I tend to think in terms of imperium only, sometimes.

[Guest]

Wait, what?  She has 6 attacks on the charge that should be hitting on 3s and then wounding on 3s with rending against high toughness models.  Should be about 3 wounds on anything, with a good chance of one being a rend.  That's about as good as it gets.  

 

The only thing she's going to struggle against is vehicles, but rending REALLY helps in that regard as against AV10, all her erstwhile glances become pens.  

Yeah, if she get's a charge. Rending does help, but still looking at 6s to harm scout sentinels, 6s followed by 3+ to glance armored sentinels, and 6s followed by 5+ to glance an ironclad dreadnought. Given her point cost, that's a pathetic value against vehicles.

 

As for MCs, again, not very impressive if the best you can do with 6 attacks on the charge, is inflict a single wound or two, while not denying invulnerable saves nor FNP. At least, not impressive given the point cost of this model.

 

Given the high point cost, these are weaknesses. Compare her to a tactical marine and these cease to be weakness, but she does cost 10x as much. It is very reasonable to compare her to an ironclad dreadnought, a 10-man tactical squad, or a wraithlord, because those are all comparable units in terms of points.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Is each Assassin taken as an individual detachment, or is Officio Assassinorum the detachment with the Temples being EL options or something?  

 

If the first, are you limited to only being able to take 1 of any given assassin?

[Guest]

Is each Assassin taken as an individual detachment, or is Officio Assassinorum the detachment with the Temples being EL options or something?  

 

If the first, are you limited to only being able to take 1 of any given assassin?

Each assassin is an elites slot. The assassin detachment only has the one elites slot, so effectively, each assassin is their own detachment. They are otherwise (non-special) characters in units of 1.

 

The formation is for 1 of each, and would be a detachment of 4 total assassins.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Thanks.  :)

 

 

Does the formation bring special rules with it?

[Guest]

Thanks.  :)

 

 

Does the formation bring special rules with it?

Not any that I could see. That said, those 4 models bring a ton of special rules with them. I think the advantage is that the formation would normally require 4 detachments, now it's just 1, which would matter in an event where detachments are limited.

[WestRider]

The Formation adds Preferred Enemy: Warlord.

[fluger]

As for MCs, again, not very impressive if the best you can do with 6 attacks on the charge, is inflict a single wound or two, while not denying invulnerable saves nor FNP. At least, not impressive given the point cost of this model.

Give me an example of a 145 pt model that will reliably put 3 wounds(before saves) on a T6 model in melee before the MC swings.  

[WestRider]

Give me an example of a 145 pt model that will reliably put 3 wounds(before saves) on a T6 model in melee before the MC swings.  

JuggerLord. 7+d6 S6 Ap2 WS5 I5 Attacks on the Charge. 145 Points if you don't buy him anything but the Mark, Axe, and Mount. Depends on the MC, of course, but he'll pretty solidly do that for any Nid MC except a Tyrant.

[fluger]

Yup, he'll do about 3 wounds on the charge.  

 

And most people call him one of the better Melee units, so a Callidus does about the same as him for the same points.  

 

I'm not saying that the Callidus is even in the same utility ballpark, but its a nice comparison. 

[Guest]

Give me an example of a 145 pt model that will reliably put 3 wounds(before saves) on a T6 model in melee before the MC swings.  

A single model? My point was that with 145pts, you could have an entire squad that does just as much, if not more.

 

I'm also a bit lost when you say BEFORE the MC swings. The Callidus is Initiative 7, so she swings after a good chunk of the daemon MCs of the various codex with daemons (prince is 8, blood thirster is 9, avatar of khaine is 10, keeper of secrets 10). She does swing before the Wraith MCs, most or all of the tyranid MCs, before the necron MCs, before the GUO and lord of change, before the DE MCs, and before that TAU MC suite. Not sure if there are others I've forgotten.

 

I will also note that with "only" initiative 7, you can actually swing at the same with a Black Legion Lord of Slaanesh with spineshiver blade, any DE Archon, or similar character. Eldar can actually swing before her with any model equipped with a banshee mask. Slaanesh daemons have a similar initiative lowering unit, as do several other codex.

 

Anyway, your challenge was a single model that can do a similar number of wounds to a MC before saves are taken?

 

How about a DE Succubus with a venomblade and a basic pistol... She's at I:8 with the same 6 attacks on the charge, same WS, but with a 2+ poisoned weapon... That's 70pts.

[Lord Hanaur]

No ap correct?