a few rules Q's from my game vs. MexicanNinja

[McNathanson]

We had a great game the other night, Dark Elves vs. Dark Elves.  He had some bad dice to start and I had some bad dice to make up for it, and in the end we were down to just a few units battling it out for the game when we had to quit cuz the game store was closing!  So I guess we'll have to run it back, oh darn ;)
 

Also I've enjoyed reading the Malekith Cauldron unit thread!  I think it's great if for no other reason than to get people thinking about how to fight a combat with multiple characters/champs and all kinds of varying stats and abilities!

I did manage to flank charge this unit with a nearly-full unit of Cold One Knights and two very killy characters.   I realize that the wiser course would have been to just bait it and run the whole game, but I thought for sure my unit would break it on the flank charge.  However due to the first round being very strange due to alignment stuff, I only won by 4 and he held, and after that it was all up to the dice as our units fought it out.  

 

But to the questions I had, there were some strange things going on that made it unclear what should happen (at least to me, who is still learning the rules minutiae of 8th)

 

1)  What happens when a larger model (e.g. Cauldron) is in a unit of smaller models (Cold One Knights) and is flank charged, like this:
 

 BB 1122
 BB 3344
ABBC5566
ABBC7788
    9900

where A and C are Knights, B is the Cauldron, and the numbered models are my Knights in his flank.

We played it that only my models in b2b with the front rank (3, 5, 7 and 9) could attack, along with my models supporting attacks behind those models (4, 6, 8 and 0).  The rest of my unit (which would have been in b2b with the Cauldron, except that it was a full model's width away since there were no Cold One Knights in the back rank of his unit) could not attack.  Did we do that right?

2)  Pretend both his Knights (A and C) are characters... can "A", who is not in b2b at the start, "Make Way" by filling in the rear rank alongside the Cauldron (touching 1 and 3)?

 

I think there was one other question we had but I can't remember it... maybe later :)

[Drak]

I think for the first example you played it right as the models in the "rear ranks" would normally slide over to be in base contact on the flank but because the cauldron can't slide over your '1122' models aren't in contact with anything.

 

as for the second question I believe the answer is yes, a character model can make way to a flank or rear charge given that they are not in combat already. my understanding is they replace a rank and file model on the flank if able but would be able to move over still if one is not available (say for example you only have another character on the flank, the make way character would just move over to fight alongside the character already on the flank).

[thatdave]

I concur on both counts.

[Brother Glacius]

I think you played part A correctly. Part B though, I would say he could not. The reason why is that he isn't replacing a model to get into combat. In that case, he is adding a rank to the unit where there was none. You can't do that unless you combat reform. So basically, Make Way would not allow the rank to be added, but a combat reform would.

 

In my opinion of course, I haven't looked at the rules yet. :)

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I agree with Drak, if the rear model touching your models was a regular unit model then yes he can use the Make Way rule. If both the models touching your unit were characters then no he wouldn't be able to do it.

 

When a character makes way he does not need to stay in the front rank as normal. But after that combat is resolved and there are no flanks being engaged then that character goes back to the front rank.

[Brother Glacius]

So looking at the rules for Make Way, they have to replace a rank and file model. Since there is no rank and file model in that location, they could not Make Way to it.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So looking at the rules for Make Way, they have to replace a rank and file model. Since there is no rank and file model in that location, they could not Make Way to it.

If there was no Rank and File you are correct. But I may have misunderstood but I thought the back one was RF. 

 

Can I get a better explanation on the two models in contact with your unit?

 

Mind you I am going from MN's list that I have seen. The only characters MN has in that unit is Malekith, Witch Hag on the CoB and the unit champion. If that is still true than there would not be any Characters in the back rank. 

[McNathanson]

Note from the diagram that the Cauldron is unit "B", and there were no other models in the 2nd rank of his unit, meaning there really wasn't any model in contact with my model "1", and my model "3" was only in corner-to-corner contact with his model "C".

 

So I tend to agree with BroG but I wanted to hear what others thought.

 

Either way though, we were both happy to resolve it however and keep playing, I just like to sort these things out for "next time" I flank charge his Cauldron unit ;)

[thatdave]

I'll need to check more into it as well as I think I didn't read it correctly either.

[thatdave]

Shouldn't knights 1 and 2 have fought against the Cauldron per the "Incomplete Ranks" on page 49?

[Romes]

Shouldn't knights 1 and 2 have fought against the Cauldron per the "Incomplete Ranks" on page 49?

 

Came to say this is correct.

 

You "fight across the gap" regardless of the weird base size. This means that both knights 1 and 2 can target the cauldron and the cauldron can target 1 through 6. 

 

This is a really useful tool when using a unit of say, 28 witch elves, horded, with a cauldron. The cauldron will get to fight to the flank.

[thatdave]

Also, per the "Make Way!" rules on page 100 the character has to make his move at the beginning of the combat, before Impact Hits even. So I also agree that the later round move was not played correctly.

[thatdave]

Came to say this is correct.

 

You "fight across the gap" regardless of the weird base size. This means that both knights 1 and 2 can target the cauldron and the cauldron can target 1 through 6.

 

This is a really useful tool when using a unit of say, 28 witch elves, horded, with a cauldron. The cauldron will get to fight to the flank.

Wouldn't the Cauldron only be able to attack knights 1 and 3 as Supporting Attacks cannot be made to the flank?

[Drak]

I stand corrected :)

 

good job continuing to flush this on out.

[Romes]

Wouldn't the Cauldron only be able to attack knights 1 and 3 as Supporting Attacks cannot be made to the flank?

I'm not sure what you mean here? 1 3 and 5 are all on the cauldron's flank.

[Romes]

Also, per the "Make Way!" rules on page 100 the character has to make his move at the beginning of the combat, before Impact Hits even. So I also agree that the later round move was not played correctly.

This is clarified in the master's FAQ that just came out. According to the FAQ, you can make way at the beginning of each round of combat.

 

I know making way in subsequent rounds has been an issue of debate before.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_C3txZLBDaCSUU3QTd2SE1SSTJEa016ODBFX2FvVXZnZDgw/view

 

section 6.18

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Wait, the two A's and C's represent one model? Got it I miss understood and thought they were two different models each.

 

As for the incomplete ranks and chariots attached to a unit I am unsure. Are there any Skaven Player's out there? They have had the Bell for awhile and this must have come up in their games.

 

After reading the DE book and incomplete ranks I think there is a Key factor here. The CoB is to be consider in the Front Rank in the Center so even though its rear is in a further back rank it is still in the front rank and can not be moved. This is just my opinion and not a ruling. But there must be a Skaven FAQ somewhere with this.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

This is clarified in the master's FAQ that just came out. According to the FAQ, you can make way at the beginning of each round of combat.

 

I know making way in subsequent rounds has been an issue of debate before.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_C3txZLBDaCSUU3QTd2SE1SSTJEa016ODBFX2FvVXZnZDgw/view

 

section 6.18

But in this instance there is no Rank and File to displace. You can't displace a character model.

 

Edit: I just reread page 100 again to make sure I had it right and just noticed something. You can replace Rank and File models "including" the command group. So the Champion can be displaced but not other characters.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Q: Is a Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace treated as separate units from the unit that is pushing it for things that affect the closest target or that affect all units within a certain range? (p43 & p48)

A: Yes.

 

Did not see anything pertaining to the above situation directly but I did find this in there. And this.

 

Q: What types of movement within their own unit can the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace execute during a game? For example, can it move within the ranks to reach a fighting position? (p43 & p48)

A: When the unit reforms, the Bell/Furnace is immediately moved to the centre of the front rank. If this is impossible (it is engaged in combat and in base contact with an enemy model, for example) then the unit may not reform.

[Romes]

Murphy,

 

The language is that the cauldron must be placed in the front center. That does not mean it dos not also occupy other ranks. For example, in a 5 wide warrior block a character on a daemonic mount can occupy both the first and second rank.

 

Also,

 

The screaming bell FAQ is unfortunately not really applicable to the rules for hte cauldron because of a few core differences (and the age of the skaven book and FAQ)

 

One. The bell unit is type unique 

 

Two. You can single out the bell unit and target it with shooting, you can't with the cauldron.

 

THree. Other stuff the skaven rules are old and bad.

 

 

Basically, as far as I can tell, the cauldron is treated just like a cav character joining an infantry unit except in areas where it specifically says it is not (positioning for example).

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Murphy,

 

The language is that the cauldron must be placed in the front center. That does not mean it dos not also occupy other ranks. For example, in a 5 wide warrior block a character on a daemonic mount can occupy both the first and second rank.

 

Also,

 

The screaming bell FAQ is unfortunately not really applicable to the rules for hte cauldron because of a few core differences (and the age of the skaven book and FAQ)

 

One. The bell unit is type unique

 

Two. You can single out the bell unit and target it with shooting, you can't with the cauldron.

 

THree. Other stuff the skaven rules are old and bad.

 

 

Basically, as far as I can tell, the cauldron is treated just like a cav character joining an infantry unit except in areas where it specifically says it is not (positioning for example).

I hear you (and you very well might be right if you look at the incomplete ranks as a RAW) but I am wondering still because if a Cav character was in a unit of infantry and was at the other end of a unit he would not be eligible for combat even if it was just him and one character infantry model even though his back of the model could be considered in the second rank.

 

Example: C being the character models and E being the Enemy in the flank.

 

.....E

C...E

CCE

 

Now I am not say I am right but the CoB is a unique situation and can be seen differently by the rules as is. We Really need a Dark Elf FAQ for this kind of thing.

 

As a side note if the CoB was considered in cobat it would totally be in the DE favor 90% of the time.

[thatdave]

I'm not sure what you mean here? 1 3 and 5 are all on the cauldron's flank.

Yeah, I didn't think about the corners 'contact' with 5. You are correct.

[MexicanNinja]

Shouldn't knights 1 and 2 have fought against the Cauldron per the "Incomplete Ranks" on page 49?

We weren't sure.  We just said "f it, let's just continue on for now".  I would have loved to get my no armour save attacks against his knights.

[MexicanNinja]

Also, per the "Make Way!" rules on page 100 the character has to make his move at the beginning of the combat, before Impact Hits even. So I also agree that the later round move was not played correctly.

I did not make way with any characters, we stopped that one from happening right away.  I'm not sure which later round move you're talking about here.

 

He charged, killed the unit champion, I passed my break test and then I reformed.

[MexicanNinja]

This is clarified in the master's FAQ that just came out. According to the FAQ, you can make way at the beginning of each round of combat.

 

I know making way in subsequent rounds has been an issue of debate before.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_C3txZLBDaCSUU3QTd2SE1SSTJEa016ODBFX2FvVXZnZDgw/view

 

section 6.18

This is a good example of me not agreeing with certain masters FAQ.  I'm not going to go into detail because this wasn't a master's game and there FAQ doesn't apply.