Help building ITC Skitarii/Knight army

[AgentP]

I'm planning out a Skitarii army to go with some Imperial Knights, and would like some input from folks.  I'm building this for ITC tournament play, so I'm looking to make this competitive within the confines of these two armies.

 

Imperial Knights Detachment

Here, I can either go with 3 in an AdLance formation, or 2 in an imperial knight formation.  My thought at this point is to go with 2, thus making Skitarii the primary army for ITC purposes.  I'm open to changing this, but need some convincing as to why it would be demonstrably better.  If I go 2, it will likely be one Errant and one Paladin.  

 

Skitarii Maniple Detachment

(2) units of 5 Skitarii Rangers, equipped the same - 2 Transuranic Arqeubus and a data tether in each.  I see these guys as backfield objective campers, using the 60" range of the arquebus and precision shots to harass units and try and pick out power fists and claws, and other potential knight threats.  Because they're backfield on their own, the data tethers are there to help with leadership.

 

(2) units of 10 Skitarii Vanguard each equipped the same -  with 3 Arc Rifles, an omnispex, and the Alpha with an arc pistol.  These are there to vehicle hunt, primarily transports so that the knights are not wasted on low point vehicles but can target units.

 

1 squad of 2 Onegar Dunecrawlers with Icarus Array - This is the army's AA.  I'm open to splitting them into two solo units.  Not sure what's better, the ability to split fire by having them run solo, or having the 5+ inv. if they are together.

 

Now that all leaves in the neighborhood of 300 points unspent.  One thought was to run a unit of 3 dunecrawlers with the eradication beamers as a central point of the battle line, conferring Ld bonus via data tethers to the two Vanguard units.  Another option would be to add a close combat unit like a infiltrator or ruststalker but I'd need some real convincing on that, as I'm dubious about those units.  A third idea would be to add in a fortification, like a couple vengeance weapon battery battle cannons, a plasma obliterator, etc.  Finally, for 300 points or so I could go with a unit of Dragoons or Ballistarii.  

 

Thanks for any feedback and ideas.

[WestRider]

Your Skitarii core is pretty close to what I'm looking at myself. I'm just planning on different Allies, with Flyers, so I don't need the Icarus Dunecrawlers, but I think they're good here.

 

I think I'd keep the Dunecrawlers together unless you really expect to be going up against a lot of AV10-11 Flyers. If it's a few, you can sort of split up their firepower via Interceptor, and against the AV12 stuff, you're pretty much always going to want to unload both, while the improvement to their Invul from Squadronning is significant. Especially since you can shuffle them around if one gets damaged but not destroyed.

 

I'm planning on occasionally running some Sicarians, but that's more because I think they're cool than anything else. I suspect they're only really good in a KillClade on a table with lots of LoS blockers. Wouldn't go with them here.

 

Autocannon Ballistarii would be a nice backup for the Vanguard on the Anti-Transport front, and could also pitch in on AA if something's winging around with just one HP left or something. Maybe two pairs of them and see how the Points fall out from there?

[wildcat]

I think the Icarus is useful, there is a lot of skimmers in the game, and they get full BS against them, if I am not mistaken Skyfire rules include all skimmers.

[generalripphook]

I would run three imperial knights, that way one of them can be your warlord and it'll be much harder for the opponent to get your slay the warlord point. Also I would play to the strength of having lots of vehicles. I'd have the AV 11 walkers with guns be your objective campers because they can move 9 a turn so effectively they can claim either of two objectives a foot away.

[Guest]

(2) units of 10 Skitarii Vanguard each equipped the same -  with 3 Arc Rifles, an omnispex, and the Alpha with an arc pistol.  These are there to vehicle hunt, primarily transports so that the knights are not wasted on low point vehicles but can target units.

Explain the unit.

 

As I see it, you can take the above for 330pts (165pts each unit).

 

Or, you could field (4) units of 5 models with 2 arc rifles each for only 340pts (10pts more, 85pts per unit).

 

The small units are a small amount more, but as a whole they boast more arc shots (In regards to all 20 models) and more wounds (because squad leaders have more wounds). In addition, having 4 units means they can engage 4 targets, which is much better if the intended point fo the unit is to kill things that the knights are not worth shooting at. Barring bits related costs of acquiring more arc rifles, seems like the smaller squads are more viable in your suggest role.

 

On a side note, those arc pistols are really overpriced if your not getting a melee weapon for your squad leader. He's only got the radium carbine and the arc pistol, so no bonus attacks without another melee weapon (pistol might actually replace the carbine.).

 

Omnispex is a nifty upgrade, but seems wasted on this weapon loadout (either build). You just have enough haywire shots for vehicles and your ap5 isn't going to deny many armor saves, so it won't matter as much if they have cover. 

[AgentP]

I've already explained it.  But as far as your idea about 4x5 being better than 2x10, yes, I thought of that as well and you may well be right.  My concern was whether five-man units would prove too liable to give up points either to first blood or being wiped off for ITC secondary points.

[Guest]

I've already explained it.  But as far as your idea about 4x5 being better than 2x10, yes, I thought of that as well and you may well be right.  My concern was whether five-man units would prove too liable to give up points either to first blood or being wiped off for ITC secondary points.

Issue there is that the unit is T3 anyway, and only has 4+ armor, so a very large number of weapons will be wiping either version. I suggest the more smaller squads route just because it would require enemy units thanks to the targeting rules. It's also easier to hide a 5-man in cover than a 10-man. So in terms of first blood targets, the 10-man isn't much more impressive than the 5-man. Suggest hiding outside TLOS if that's the concern for turn 1.

 

If seriously trying to make them more durable, the 10pt conversion field upgrade for the squad leader is amazing. Highly recommended if you want a bigger squad to survive.

 

The other option, which is strongly implied in the skitarii man-nipple detachment entry, is to take a fortification. Any building or skyshield or voidshield would do wonders to keeping them alive.

[AgentP]

Hmm, I just realized that skyfire works against skimmers.  In the new future of Eldar jet bike spam, maybe 2 Icarus are not enough.

[pretre]

Hmm, I just realized that skyfire works against skimmers.  In the new future of Eldar jet bike spam, maybe 2 Icarus are not enough.

Jetbikes aren't skimmers. :) Skyfire doesn't work on them.

[AgentP]

WHAT?!  Really?  Argh!

[Guest]

Hmm, I just realized that skyfire works against skimmers.  In the new future of Eldar jet bike spam, maybe 2 Icarus are not enough.

 

Jetbikes aren't skimmers. :) Skyfire doesn't work on them.

Even if the icarus fired at full BS, it really isn't a great weapon for hunting 17-27pt bikes with 4+ cover and 3+ armor. At 125pts per icarus walker, not really a very practical route for most bike units.

 

So, for the eldar bikes, your imperial knight 2-shot battle cannons look pretty viable. Cuts through the armor and IDs. Even with 4+ cover, 2 shots.... (Those battle cannon versions are likely the better route against all things eldar)

 

For skitarii solutions, you've got a few options. First would be assault via any unit with dunestrider, as they are actually fast enough to get a charge on jetbikes. The phosphor weapons aren't a horrible option, especially the ap2 relic pistol and the ap3 walker mounted one. The Erradicator would be awesome at long range. Beyond that, those radium carbines seem pretty viable (stock unit of 10 vanguard has 30 shots). The two different sniper weapons could also work.

[Nathanvoodoo]

This list seems really susceptible to tar pitting. Err.., well at least that's what initially pops into mind for me.

[PourSpelur]

+ edit+ posted in wrong thread;)

[Guest]

I'm really considering making more Leman Russ Eradicator turrets...

Fan out 3 so shots are against av14 front and laugh at think saves;)

Of course wraithwhatevers and Vaul's will laugh right back;(

Yeah, been considering the Eradicator too.

 

This list seems really susceptible to tar pitting. Err.., well at least that's what initially pops into mind for me.

In the respect that it's a bunch of small units of models, I agree, but those knights are difficult to tarpit.

 

The more practical issue is that the list is very prone to focused fire. A very few small units. Depending on the opponent, it might not matter. Some armies are more able to cope with knights than others.

 

For suggestions, I would look into cheap allies which can make your army more numerous. Some psykers, even if only for reliable dispel dice, really couldn't hurt. I think AM allies with a psyker or two would be a very positive addition. Barrage weapons would be quite effective with imperial knights to block TLOS.

[AgentP]

ITC currently allows 2 detachments, hence knights and skitarii.  Those are the two forces I have to choose from.

[Nathanvoodoo]

I dunno. I'm not really thinking too much about the knights here. They are strong either way.

 

What I'm thinking would suck for you is those damned bike lists. Skilled rider and all those 2/3up jinks. I'd get more lumigen and omni-specs to deal with that crap. I can just see some pile of bikes diving right in and wrecking those onagers. A third onager and at least one cognis manipulator I think would be appropriate. 

 

I know everyone will probably disagree with me on this, but I really think a squad of dragoons has a lot of potential. Dunestrider, and they attack at s8 and initiative 6 on the charge. 6 of those guys is 270 points. They can spread out cause they are walkers, making them less susceptible to blast weapons.

[WestRider]

I ain't gonna disagree with you on that one. They're fast, have their own Cover, and look like they'll pretty hard against a lot of things. The only real argument I have against running 6 Dunestriders is that I don't want to drop $300 on them :P

[Nathanvoodoo]

True enough. I think over a few months I'll get there.

 

I've been pretty good about not buying models faster than I can paint them lately.

[Guest]

ITC currently allows 2 detachments, hence knights and skitarii.  Those are the two forces I have to choose from.

Wow...you need to, then, really plan for an overkill list. Daemon summoning lists are going to be a real problem, as you just won't have the dispel dice to slow them down.

 

I suggest taking a serious look at those two-legged walkers. They would be a cheap force multiplier if taken in squads of 1 or 2, plus they'd force the opponent to divide their AT that was going to be focused at the knights.

 

The FA version with the lance is actually a pretty viable solution to skimmer spam, as it's fast enough to catch them, and solid anti-vehicle melee attacks. The jezzrail alternate is a nifty sniper weapon on a fast, always in cover, platform.

 

The heavy version's cognis weapons are very much viable AA weapons. Not as impressive as that icarus array, but I think you may benefit more from groundfire weapons that have decent skyfire, and benefit less from skyfire weapons which are lacking groundfire ones, just because of how few units you have.

[galahad911]

Wow...you need to, then, really plan for an overkill list. Daemon summoning lists are going to be a real problem, as you just won't have the dispel dice to slow them down.

 

I suggest taking a serious look at those two-legged walkers. They would be a cheap force multiplier if taken in squads of 1 or 2, plus they'd force the opponent to divide their AT that was going to be focused at the knights.

 

The FA version with the lance is actually a pretty viable solution to skimmer spam, as it's fast enough to catch them, and solid anti-vehicle melee attacks. The jezzrail alternate is a nifty sniper weapon on a fast, always in cover, platform.

 

The heavy version's cognis weapons are very much viable AA weapons. Not as impressive as that icarus array, but I think you may benefit more from groundfire weapons that have decent skyfire, and benefit less from skyfire weapons which are lacking groundfire ones, just because of how few units you have.

 

I cannot imagine spending the money on the chickenwalkers, and it looks to me like they're much taller than Sentinels, enough so that using sentinels at an ITC event for them is likely a no go.

[Guest]

I cannot imagine spending the money on the chickenwalkers, and it looks to me like they're much taller than Sentinels, enough so that using sentinels at an ITC event for them is likely a no go.

You'd want a conversion anyway, the stock plastic sentinels are ugly. I've got a pair of the 2nd incarnation of metal sentinels which I plan to use. They should be fine after a few tweaks. Worst case, I'll model it on a large hill...

 

I will note that the base pictured with the skitarii walkers is not a flying base. According to the GW site, they are supplied with a 105mm x 70mm oval base (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Sydonian-Dragoon).

 

According to GW, the flying base is 120mm x 92mm. (http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Flying-Stem-and-Base)

 

If you've ever tried to make a current GW plastic sentinel, they have some trouble fitting on their 60mm base, with "toes" often over the edges. This new base is only 10mm wider, so they should be about sentinel sized, at least in model width.

[Guest]

This guy:

Does he not look the part?

[AgentP]

I assembled a dragoon tonight.  Very poorly designed model.  Lots of parts that didn't need to be in multiple pieces, lots of connection points that were very small and will not wear well at all.  

[WestRider]

I assembled a dragoon tonight.  Very poorly designed model.  Lots of parts that didn't need to be in multiple pieces, lots of connection points that were very small and will not wear well at all.  

Doesn't surprise me, based on what I've been going through just with the Troops and Elites. These are impressive Models once you get them done, but it feels like they need way more cleanup and gap filling and other work than should be necessary.

[Guest]

I assembled a dragoon tonight.  Very poorly designed model.  Lots of parts that didn't need to be in multiple pieces, lots of connection points that were very small and will not wear well at all.  

So, how big is it compared to a Sentinel?