Still cautious of AoS

[Guest]

Yeah, so seems like GW had that brief moment of goodness, where they released free rules on the internet, but now they've got $50 army books again.

 

What are my costs in AoS these days? Like starting from scratch.

 

Any clue what the future will bring for AoS? Models are getting more expensive and GW clearly has no qualms forcing their players to rebase everything buy a totally new game without any warning.

 

The GW models are still gorgeous, but they are certainly getting more expensive, and I am very wary of this game due to it's lack of clarity regarding costs. I don't really want to buy an army and books only to learn that GW is going to, once again, ditch it for a more expensive version.

 

I don't mean to rehash old issues, but I am curious if there is any clarity regarding the present and future of this hobby. And I'm especially curious regarding financial costs.

 

And more so, I'm very nervous of wasting a whole ton of time painting a great army only to have GW ditch this game on a whim.

[splinx]

I don't think anyone has any idea of what is going to happen to it at this time. The format doesn't seem to of taken off and a lot of people have left to play Kings of War, 9th age or sold everything off completely to play 40k or other games. 

 

From friends who work for GW in the UK the AoS hasn't sold as well as expected and after the initial flurry of people purchasing the box set they have been beaten in sales by BaC and also the new Tau releases so if it continues i don't expect it to last long. :(

 

If I were you i would grab the free rules try out the game and see its something you want to play before shelling out any money. Give it 6 months and see where its at would be something i would advise. I have a feeling it may go bye bye sooner rather than later if it continues to not generate any money. 

[Threejacks]

1- The "Army Books" you are seeing are the Battle Tombs.I own all but the most recent Archeon one and from a quality standpoint,they are done very well,have great back stories that bring them up to date as to were they stand in the Mortal Realms.The books also list all the Warscrolls available( at the time of printing) for the army as well as most all of the published Battalion scrolls(some are pdf or WD).Even counting the End Times books I had(sold them) these new Battletombs are THE best GW game books ive purchased yet.They also contain 3 new Battleplans to play(scenarios) of which many of those seem pretty fun.

 

 

Are they needed to play the game?...NO!

 

2-The games cost is less than previous edition considering that the average model count for an army that would be used in a 1.5 to 2 hr game now is probably around 60 models with elite armies being around half that.

 

Yes the new crack is expensive,,same with 40k but these AoS sculpts are some of the best they've done.

 

As for the future...

 

Ive read that GW has planned out these releases years in advance and will likely continue with them.Remember,they have openly stated that they are targeting collectors now more so than gamers,so its quite possible that collectors of the models will keep the game alive.Im very much a model builder and painter and have made several purchases in AoS with just that aspect in mind.

 

On the actual game end of it,yes its a very "slow burn" sort of thing.I enjoy the easy to play style of game which I liken to a fantasy version of 40k,more on the melee focus rather than shooting focus.There is a small tournament scene in the UK that is doing well with a balanced competitive comp system,we have a few good comp systems in the States as well.From what I can see AoS will have events at many of the upcoming yearly conventions as well,some events being competitive were others will be more casual.I think Adepticon lists 3 events sessions for AoS now?.

 

I can also attest to the fact that the game is much more new/young player friendly as I have gotten all three of my boys playing AoS...sometimes at the same time in 2 different games!.They are occasionally modeling and painting now too.

 

With free rules and warscrolls I don't see AoS "Dying" anytime soon.It may never be a full on tournament game like other miniature games are,but theres room for it in the casual end of miniature gaming for sure.

 

Pax,you need to get a sample game in,let me know and I can meet you GG or at WoW if ya like.I can bring enough minis for both of us,or you can bring you skellies and I can even bring some TK stuff to add to that if you want:)

[Guest]

If I were you i would grab the free rules try out the game and see its something you want to play before shelling out any money. Give it 6 months and see where its at would be something i would advise. I have a feeling it may go bye bye sooner rather than later if it continues to not generate any money. 

It's not really an issue of the game being good or not, as this game is really dependent on the players. In all likelihood, the game is great. That's not my issue or fear. GW games tend to suffer from a lack of GW support, which is only balanced by having a very strong player base. 40k's biggest strong point is the availability of its players.

 

I'm not really looking to get into a game that fizzles out in 6 months because the company isn't interested in supporting a game that isn't making enough money. Doesn't really matter to me if I borrow an army or I buy it myself, GW is a very irritating company to invest myself in and I will not put up with them if I don't have a consistent player base for a game that is going last.

 

I am somewhat jaded with GW, but I don't feel that behavior is uncommon amongst its players. As far as I can tell, GW games are successful because GW games are successful. In the past, this was greatly aided by a pure lack of competition, but times are changing and their decisions are having more impact on their player base than they did in the past.

 

Anyway,

 

1- The "Army Books" you are seeing are the Battle Tombs.I own all but the most recent Archeon one and from a quality standpoint,they are done very well,have great back stories that bring them up to date as to were they stand in the Mortal Realms.The books also list all the Warscrolls available( at the time of printing) for the army as well as most all of the published Battalion scrolls(some are pdf or WD).Even counting the End Times books I had(sold them) these new Battletombs are THE best GW game books ive purchased yet.They also contain 3 new Battleplans to play(scenarios) of which many of those seem pretty fun.

 

 

Are they needed to play the game?...NO!

This point I'm confused on. The website lists the current "free" rules here: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer?Nao=0Ν=product.repositoryId&N=102351+4294965657&qty=12&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat440002a-flat

 

Now, none of the released Army books (battletomes) are represented in these free rules. This, to me, strongly implies that they intend to replace the free rules with costly rules.

 

I really like the idea of GW switching to a simplified ruleset that doesn't require buying the rules, but that isn't something the GW I know would do.

[Threejacks]

All of the released Battletombs have supplemental information in the form of some new Battalion formations and Battleplans(Scenarios).They also include warscrolls for each unit in the army that in many cases have the exact same info that is listed in the Warscrolls you will find on the link you posted.For the new armies like the Stormcast,you can DL the Warscroll directly from the link on each unit description in the online store were you would order and buy the models(if you were doing an online purchase).

 

Plus theres the Age of Sigmar app that has ALL of the warscrolls and rules for free all in a mobile app that is free,I use this all the time for army building.Simple to find app on the Play store.You can click and add warscrolls to a "My Army" section that you use to access your scrolls during a game.

 

 

Even the Battleplans can be purchased digitally for .99 ea.Or purchased in sets from the Battletombs for 15.00 or something like that.

 

Also there are several comp systems that have scenarios to play along with them,these have balance and competition in mind and many work very well.

 

Finally,GW has stated from the beginning that the free rules are a "Living Document" and thus even if they did add to them,they wouldn't charge money for it.

 

Now they may release different formats to play in,those would likely be a ruleset that would probably be something along the line of 40k`s Apoc rulebook,or maybe something like Triumph and Trechery...I would much like to see the latter.

 

They are going with the free rules thing because their target market,Collectors,dont care about rules.As gamers though,we can take their free rules and use them how we wish,adding point systems,new scenarios and tweak for balance as we feel the need:)

[Nathanvoodoo]

The models are the best I've seen in any tabletop game.

 

They are also really expensive. That said, the game lends itself really really well to allowing the player to use the models they love- not just the ones the HAVE to, to win.

You won't find yourself entranced by a beautiful model only to find it's useless in the game.

 

The rules are free- that's it. The books are akin to a 40k codex- they give fluf, story, formations and scenarios- but the rules for the game and induvidual models to play the basic game are totally free.

 

The player base on all GW stuff seems gonzo to me right now. 40k is too competitive and AoS is rickety with a weak core of players.

 

I love it, and I hope more people come to play it-

[Andrewgeddon]

The rules are free- that's it. The books are akin to a 40k codex- they give fluf, story, formations and scenarios- but the rules for the game and induvidual models to play the basic game are totally free.

Not trying to sound snarky at all, I'm genuinely curious, are the formations and scenarios not very important to AoS? 

 

In 40K (in my experience), the formations add a ton to the army; if all the 40K rules were free but all of the formations were in the codices, you are basically not playing to full game unless you shell out the money for the books. Is AoS different?  

[Nathanvoodoo]

Dunno.

 

The formations are available without buying the whole book, I think they are 3 bucks or something. I think it's kinda shiesty of them to do that- but GW is a really terrible company to their fans, so it's not a surprise.

 

I don't think that the formations and scenarios are required to create enjoyable games at all.

[Threejacks]

Not trying to sound snarky at all, I'm genuinely curious, are the formations and scenarios not very important to AoS? 

 

In 40K (in my experience), the formations add a ton to the army; if all the 40K rules were free but all of the formations were in the codices, you are basically not playing to full game unless you shell out the money for the books. Is AoS different?

Some of the formations have nice perks but for the most part,you can put together units to achieve the army synergy that you want without them.

 

The Battleplans in the books are quite fun and can be purchased piecemeal through the AoS App.

 

You are asking a question based on the premise that AoS is being played in a competitive environment right now..for the most part it is not being played that way.Well,lets just say its not even close to being "Min Maxed" as player groups are still working on perfecting comp systems and a competitive scenario rotation.I personally would not like AoS to go down this road as its not designed to be a competitive game,,the random factor is just too prevalent for that.It is however real fun for narrative and even group play.

 

The "Free Rules" aspect of AoS is pretty much there to give players a way to try out the game.Just like any other game system,if you like what you see after trying it,there are other supplemental purchases that you can make to enhance your gaming experience.

[Guest]

Okay...if I play tonight, as I'm pretty sure fridays are your league, what do I need? Obviously, read the free rules and free army entries, but beyond that?

 

Oh, and rather humorously, if we aren't required to use square bases, I think I have more Tzeentch Daemons than I do any other "fantasy" army.

 

EDIT: Yeah, I'm still cautious, but you sell it well, Rcnjack.

[Blustorm]

There was a Friday evening AoS league at GG during August, September, and October, but it ended already. Unless you are talking about a different AoS league?

[Guest]

That was the one I was thinking of. Glad you mentioned that it was not meeting. Thanks.

[Threejacks]

You want to try for next Saturday at GG?

 

Would probably be evening time as I think the crit sip is being used during the afternoon for an event.

[Guest]

You want to try for next Saturday at GG?

 

Would probably be evening time as I think the crit sip is being used during the afternoon for an event.

The 19th? I'll try, but Holidays related things tend to screw with any scheduling attempts for me during this month.

[Guest]

Okay, so I skimmed the rules and the battletomes for the armies I have models for. I have two main questions:

 

First, how does list creation work (like where the opponent has fun too)?

 

Most notably, some of my units are not fieldable in those detachments (warscrolls?), especially things like warmachines. Furthermore, can I mix factions within a list?

 

Second, how does equipment work?

 

In example, my Soulgrinder model has a pair of claws and a sword (sword was originally meant to be decorative). The entry for him in the chaos daemon book(battletome?) is that some will hand just a claw, and some an extra claw (which has a different name), and some will have a sword. As I read it, some could have both too. With only skimming the rules, I'm unclear if additional equipment will cause unbalance in that model, or if it's just a choice and doesn't really matter as I'm unable to benefit from both weapons at the same time(?).

[Threejacks]

For list creation,we have recently been just using wounds with the following comp;

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army

100 wound army cap

25 wound scroll cap

1-3 Heroes/Wizards

0-3 Warmachines

0-3 Monsters

 

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters

All from the same main faction(Order,Chaos,Death,Destruction)

 

Most formations should be able to be used within the above guidelines,usually theres room for at least a few more scrolls even.

 

Equipement is dealt with in the opening description of the unit as you have found.One thing to keep in mind on this is that many units/models have had their equipment load outs somewhat tweaked by AoS,so yes you may have a model that has gear on it that now would not quite be an exact match to what the game is requiring..as long as that's stated at game start then it shouldn't be an issue.

For the Soulgrinder it looks like it has the Harvester Cannon,Piston-driven legs and a Hellforged Claw.It can also spit a Phlegm Bombardment.The optional equipment is either a Warpmetal Blade or a Daemonbone Talon.

 

When dealing with models that have multiple weapons be aware that they can attack with all of those weapons each turn,even directing some of the attacks of multi-attacks weapons to different tartgets as long as they are in range.The main thing here is that the model has to be able to be equipped with multiple weapons.Also many units can dual wield weapons(both weapons being identical)in most all of those cases it does NOT mean they get to attack with each weapon like other models that have multiple different weapons,,its usually dealt with by allowing the unit to reroll hits rolls of one,or something along those lines.

[Guest]

For list creation,we have recently been just using wounds with the following comp;

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army

100 wound army cap

25 wound scroll cap

1-3 Heroes/Wizards

0-3 Warmachines

0-3 Monsters

 

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters

All from the same main faction(Order,Chaos,Death,Destruction).

What does this mean? Doesn't seem to be very clear cut in the AoS rules, so I have to ask.

 

As I understand it, each unit entry is a "warscroll" so 8-10 warscrolls means 8-10 unit entries, right?

 

100 wounds is easy enough, no issues there.

 

25 wound scroll cap....? Perhaps no unit can contain more than 25 wounds....?

 

1-3 heroes/wizards...I'm looking at my Tzeentch and thinking that a 1-3 wizard cap is severly limiting. Am I missing something?

 

0-3 monsters...If a monster is also a hero/wizard, does it count towards the 1-3 above in addition to the 0-3 monsters?

 

My lord of change, in example, is a Hero, a Wizard, and a Monster. With him in my army, am I allowed only 0-2 other monsters and 0-2 other heroes/wizards?

 

0-3 warmachines....No examples, but if I have a monster warmachine, or wizard warmachine, does it count towards both groups as above?

 

Okay, so factions are Chaos/death/order/destruction. I see that some of my units grant magic to my faction wizards. In particular, many units grant their faction wizards the ability to summon the unit. I assume this means I must start with one of the units in order to summon it during the game...?

 

Beyond that, my "army" can include models from any "book," provided they are the same faction? Beastmen and Daemons, for example?

 

Last, Pretty sure they aren't called detachments, but I note that there isn't a requirement for or against the "detachments" listed at the end of the "army book." Now I know that my Tzeentch daemon one isn't legal, as it includes too many wizards in required units, but are other opponent's going to be allowed to field them?

[Guest]

Oh, are scenery warscrolls allowed in this

 

8-10 War Scrolls Army
100 wound army cap
25 wound scroll cap
1-3 Heroes/Wizards
0-3 Warmachines
0-3 Monsters

No duplicate named Hero/Monsters
All from the same main faction(Order,Chaos,Death,Destruction).

[Threejacks]

Its just a simple comp to go by for building a list,there are many fan made ones out there and some are rather elaborate.

 

We can build lists based on just Warscroll count if you want to,but at least using a wounds is a much more balanced approach.

 

Basically..rules as written,you can bring ALL the fantasy models in your collection and we will alternate placing warscrolls at game setup until both players are done placing what they want.Then we would determine if Sudden death comes into play.As goofy and out of balance as this method sounds ,it is pretty much what they did at the most recent AoS event held at Warhammer World and the end result with 25 or so entrants was a balanced competition.The most important reason that event was held under control was that a time limit was set for each round,many in the first round couldn't place their entire army or placed so many scrolls that they didn't even get two game turns done.

 

We have found that 100 wounds makes for a 1.5 to 2.5 hr game and is usually plenty enough to allow for any WArscroll Battalions players would like to bring.

 

In the above comp Monsterous Heros would count toward your choice of either a Monster OR a Hero.Same would go for a Monster/Warmachine.Hero/Wizard scrolls only count as one slot in the 1-3 Hero/Wizards.

 

If you feel you need to take more Heros I would be fine with that too:).I know theres a Stormcast Battalion that uses several hero`s I would like to try sometime.

 

Scenery scrolls don't count and you can bring however many you like,I usually try to take at least one:)

 

As far as summoning goes,yes you need to have the warscroll in your army in order to gain the spell to summon them.Now that of course means you can start with them on the board(then summon more of them if you have the models available)or you can start them in reserve and summon them in.

Also,the BRB rule on summoned models is that models summoned count toward casualties suffered,,as in they are dead when you summon them as far as kill count is concerned(if that victory condition is being used,most battleplans don't use that)So if kill count is in play,watch out with the summoning as you can quickly screw yourself and be forced to table your opponent in order to win.

Also if you want to summon a wizard that can summon another wizard that can summon another wizard there is nothing stopping you.Like the Herald of Tzeentch can chain summon more copies of itself until you run out of models..this kind of play is allowed in RAR.So yeah it can get crazy as well and I can imagine if someone wants to make a list that will summon up 50 Heralds in their first turn, they would probably win most all of their games,,cant imagine that would be very fun to play though.Ive yet to hear of anyone trying these kind of things at any events thus far.

[Guest]

Thanks.

 

Yeah, game looks good on paper. I can see what you were talking about with your earlier comments about the game (offline).

 

So, to verify:

 

If I wanted to do a very basic Tzeentch list with the above comp requirement:

 

Lord of Change (10 wounds, Monster Slot)

Pink Horrors (10, Wizard/hero slot)

Pink Horrors (10, Wizard/hero slot)

Pink Horrors (10, Wizard/hero slot)

Flamers (18 wounds for unit, no slot)

Furies (5, no slot)

Soul Grinder (16 wounds, Monster)

Daemon Prince (8 wounds, Monster)

 

For a total of 8 warscrolls worth of models, and meeting the other requirements (87 wounds, 3 monsters, 3 hero/wizards, no warmachines, no warscroll with more than 25 wounds)

 

I could then add a beastmen or chaos mortal unit, but not an orc or elf unit, due to faction limitations...right?

[Threejacks]

Yeah you can any units that are Chaos faction..like I say,its just a very mild comp as the BRB allows any models to be used despite the faction.This just keeps armies at least a little fluffy,heh.

 

That's a solid list and would be tough to win against in most any scenario.With the amount of shooting it puts out it would be right on par with an optimized Tau list in 40k terms,heh.Actually it would be a good list to test comps and scenarios against:)

[Norrad]

Actually, if the unit entry has the Monster identifier along with Hero or Wizard then the unit counts towards both limits.

[Threejacks]

Actually, if the unit entry has the Monster identifier along with Hero or Wizard then the unit counts towards both limits.

Ahh,,wasn't sure how you were calling that one,thnx for the heads up:)

 

Pax,you would need to adjust your list for this comp then.The main issue is with the Pink Horrors being able to summon themselves being wizards and all.

Pink Horrors were mentioned in a list that a player brought to that recent event at Warhammer World I mentioned earlier in the thread.The guy took one unit of 30 and pretty much wrecked players with it,lol.He did end up getting beat by the author`s list mainly due to there being a large LoS blocking piece of terrain in the middle of the board.This just goes to show that AoS is much like any other miniatures game,you play the scenario objectives as much as possible and don't get sucked into playing against the power of your opponents list.

[Threejacks]

Check out this link Pax,I would be happy to try this mode with you.

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/662817.page

 

Its very balanced and the comp is very mild and easy to follow.Makes for faster battles too as the armies are on the smaller size:)

[Guest]

Actually, if the unit entry has the Monster identifier along with Hero or Wizard then the unit counts towards both limits.

I see.

 

I'll figure it out. That was intended as a sample, though it is something I actually can field. Looks like a pure tzeentch list will require not just daemons. Not a huge problem, but something to consider.

 

Though in thumbing through the factions, I note that "Order" has a few anti-chaos options, yet chaos entirely lacks anti-order options. Very odd, I think.

 

Check out this link Pax,I would be happy to try this mode with you.

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/662817.page

 

Its very balanced and the comp is very mild and easy to follow.Makes for faster battles too as the armies are on the smaller size:)

I'll look into it.