Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Additionally, units who fired heavy weapons can't charge (Assault Rules). I've been telling you, this one is wrong. It's just a reference list. It is clearly not intended to be used as a rule. Otherwise you run into situations like where relentless doesn't work, because relentless only applies to models, not units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I've been telling you, this one is wrong. It's just a reference list. It is clearly not intended to be used as a rule. Otherwise you run into situations like where relentless doesn't work, because relentless only applies to models, not units. Relentless is more specific than the assault and shooting rules, so overrules. It is also referring to the very specific heavy weapon rules that we have already addressed. So again, find another example other than shooting heavy weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I've been telling you, this one is wrong. It's just a reference list. It is clearly not intended to be used as a rule. Otherwise you run into situations like where relentless doesn't work, because relentless only applies to models, not units. Also, this hurts your cause even more. That means the following are all reasons you can't charge: - Shooting Heavies (Shooting Rules) stop a model from charging (the only time this happens) - G2G stops a unit from charging - Falling Back stops a unit from charging - Deep Strike stops a unit from charging - Swooping stops a unit from charging (technically, this is a model and a unit, but more importantly a unit) So Heavies is the exception, not the rule. The rule is units charge and determine eligibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 CHARACTER AND ASSAULTS Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit. If a character is in a unit that charges into close combat, the character charges too, as it is part of the unit. If the character’s unit is locked in close combat, he fights as part of the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Relentless is more specific than the assault and shooting rules, so overrules. It is also referring to the very specific heavy weapon rules that we have already addressed. So again, find another example other than shooting heavy weapons. Look at it again. Starts with "Relentless models" then goes for a second line with this: They [as in relentless models] are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire heavy, ordnance, rapid fire, or salvo weapons. Brackets are mine, didn't want to write the other sentence. If the note in the assault phase is correct, and units cannot assault after firing a heavy weapon, then relentless does not affect the lack of ability to declare a charge, as it only applies to models. Also, this hurts your cause even more. . Love it, I've got a cause. What's my cause? I'd be happy if you could present viable evidence that proves this argument wrong. All your doing is muddling the existing rules to make the existing game more vague. As for that irritating colored text, you are applying a unit's Special Rules to the character, not the Normal rules. That doesn't apply to this discussion. The normal rules for that unit are not being able to assault from reserves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 So, what do you have against the Deep Strike assault prohibition that actually pertains to this discussion? Not the heavy weapon restriction, which is model based and an exception to the general trend of unit based assault, but actually deep strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 As for that irritating colored text, Oh wah. It's a side effect of C&P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 So, what do you have against the Deep Strike assault prohibition that actually pertains to this discussion? Not the heavy weapon restriction, which is model based and an exception to the general trend of unit based assault, but actually deep strike. you are applying a unit's Special Rules to the character, not the Normal rules. That doesn't apply to this discussion. The normal rules for that unit are not being able to assault from reserves... Seriously. Normal rules for that assault squad is that they can't assault from reserves. The Special Rule allows them to assault. IC specifically doesn't gain the special rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Oh wah. It's a side effect of C&P. Is that it? Super annoying. I wonder if it can be fixed? Mine sure doesn't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Seriously. Normal rules for that assault squad is that they can't assault from reserves. The Special Rule allows them to assault. IC specifically doesn't gain the special rule. IC doesn't need it because the IC doesn't assault; the unit assaults. If that's all you got, I consider this closed. It works. I'll wait for someone else to chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 IC doesn't need it because the IC doesn't assault; the unit assaults. If that's all you got, I consider this closed. It works. I'll wait for someone else to chime in. If that's all you've got, I also consider this closed. It doesn't work. I'll wait for you to re-think your stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 The IC does need it, as only things taken from the formation get that special rule. This is a very lively rules debate, but are you ever going to actually attempt this in a game pretre? Not until there is a ruling one way or the other. IC doesn't charge so doesn't need it. The deep strike restriction is for unit, not 'All models in a deep striking unit'. Unit has the rule and doesn't lose it when he joins, so they can still charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 He's still not purchased as part of the formation, and therefor can't assault when deepstriking. There is no special allowance that let the IC use the rules for the formation. I do like you playing devil's advocate here, but this is rules lawyering at it's finest. Being part of the formation has nothing to do with being able to assault. Being part of an assault squad in the formation does. ICs are part of a unit for all rules purposes. The unit is allowed to assault, the IC doesn't take that away. ICs don't gain the special rules but they also don't take them away. Assaulting is by unit, not by model. In this case, I'm not playing DA. I seriously believe this is the correct interpretation. As for rules lawyering, that's always in the eye of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Whatever you say buddy. Damn right! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 See, going back here, I agree with everything except the underlined. I think AP is misremembering the Assault rules and thinking of the heavy weapon restriction. It never mentions model specific restrictions in the assault rules. I had to look it up, as I said originally, in order to dispute it though. Alright, different example to prove the same point, then. I have a unit composed of five Space Marine Bikes and one Chaplain on foot. During the Shooting phase, I choose to Run. Can I assault? Only one model (the IC) Ran, not the whole unit- Bikes can't Run. By your interpretation, they should be able to- the unit assaults, not the models, so the non-Running Bikes allow the Chaplain to "tag along." By mine, they cannot- if one model in a unit is prohibited from taking an action, that will prevent the unit as a whole from doing so (though in cases where model-by-model actions occur, such as shooting, this is not the case.) Assaults can only ever happen by unit, not by model, so you cannot assault if any member of the unit is unable to do so. Let's throw another example out there- I have a Tyranid Prime attached to a unit of Mucolids. Am I allowed to assault a Flyer or FMC? The Mucolids have a special rule allowing them to do so, but the Prime does not. By your interpretation, not only could the Prime assault them, it would be able to swing and even lock an FMC in combat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 The bikes don't have a rule that allows them to assault after running. The unit ran even if the bikes did not (they took a run/turbo boost action during the shooting phase, right? Units run, not models.).I'll have to lookup the prime/mucolid thing later as I don't have a tyranid codex with me right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Let's throw another example out there- I have a Tyranid Prime attached to a unit of Mucolids. Am I allowed to assault a Flyer or FMC? The Mucolids have a special rule allowing them to do so, but the Prime does not. By your interpretation, not only could the Prime assault them, it would be able to swing and even lock an FMC in combat. So this one was really interesting. I figured there was a rule that stopped you from joining spore mines, but there isn't. So my interpretation? Yes, you could. Of course, it would be suicide. You only move 3" each movement phase and charge half distance. And since the Mucolids explode at I10 with S8 AP3, chances are is going to take a bunch of wounds in the process. The chances of you ever pulling it off? Practically null since a FMC or flyer isn't going to hang out within 6" of you as soon as they see it. But I think it's a legit rules thing you could do. An independent character is part of the unit for all rules purposes. The unit can charge the FMC, so can the Prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 What're some other rules that would disprove it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I'm going to side with AP and Pax on this one, I think if one model in the unit can't, the whole unit can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I'm going to side with AP and Pax on this one, I think if one model in the unit can't, the whole unit can't. Now, I will totally agree with all of you if you can show me where it is a model by model thing and not a unit thing for the restriction. Other than heavy weapons, which seem to be the only ones with specific model language out of all the assault rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indytims Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Just reading the back and forth, I see arguments for both sides that make sense. Not really something 'new' to GW games, of course. Heh. I am curious what your guys's -opinions- are as far as RAI. I know, it's 'speculation' to try to interpret what we think the writers were trying to do, and on the table, it's not enforceable, but I am just curious. Do you guys think GW intended for you to be able to add ICs to the Formation and grant them the Formation benefits? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 I think rai is pretty unclear. This one isn't as cut and dried as some. Rai for the mucolid is clear though. Idc either way, I won't attach characters without a ruling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 What're some other rules that would disprove it? You have a Land Raider and a Rhino, both with models embarked on them and sitting next to each other. A squad of Tactical Marines disembarks from the Land Raider and a Captain disembarks from the Rhino, ending such that he is within 2" of the squad. Even though he didn't disembark from an assault vehicle, according to your interpretation he is now allowed to charge. Similarly, imagine an IC arriving from reserves and joining a squad that had been sitting on the board already. By your interpretation, the existence of the other squad apparently overrules the "can't charge from reserves" rule in the BRB even if the unit has no special rules of any kind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 17, 2015 Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 I keep going back to that FNP debate in 5th because it was the same situation. The rules were very different, but the issue was that strict RAW would break the game mechanics and create all sorts of issues. So, while Pretre may or may not be correct that a unit assaults and the IC "tags along," the bottom line issue is that if this is allowed, it really alters the way the entire game plays. It's like a house of cards and trying to replace cards from the bottom, it really risks making the whole thing fall apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2015 You have a Land Raider and a Rhino, both with models embarked on them and sitting next to each other. A squad of Tactical Marines disembarks from the Land Raider and a Captain disembarks from the Rhino, ending such that he is within 2" of the squad. Even though he didn't disembark from an assault vehicle, according to your interpretation he is now allowed to charge. Similarly, imagine an IC arriving from reserves and joining a squad that had been sitting on the board already. By your interpretation, the existence of the other squad apparently overrules the "can't charge from reserves" rule in the BRB even if the unit has no special rules of any kind. Disembarking seems to be based on model. Good catch! It's just like heavy weapons. So the first one doesn't work under my interpretation. "After disembarking, models can manifest their psychic powers and either shoot or Run in their subsequent Shooting phase, counting as having moved that turn, but they cannot declare a charge in their subsequent Assault phase." The second one seems to be based on Unit though: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."So, yes, it looks like the second one works under my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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