Circular Debates over Assault Rules - Was: New C:SM Stuff

[Guest]

Exactly.

 

The unit is charging, not the models. It changes everything. If it said 'Models that arrived by deep strike can't charge.' I would agree with you. It doesn't. Note the wording at the beginning of the Deep Strike entry 'All models must have the deep strike rule'. Contrast that with the assault part at the end 'these units cannot charge'. Hmm. Different words...

And "Unit" vs Assault Squad.

 

And yeah, although steel angel points out that squad could reference it being a unit, I think in this case it is clear referring to the SM Fast Attack option called the "Assault Squad."

 

I will also note that throughout the formation Special rules, the 'Assault Squad' and 'unit' are terms used to refer to different things. The First the fire, then the blade special rule is very clear that it allows the assault squad from the skyhammer assault formation to charge after deep striking. If it wanted the Assault Squad's unit to gain the rule, it would have said so.

[pretre]

Models in the formation gain its bonuses, including the ability to assault the turn they arrive from reserve.

 

ICs that join a unit are part of that unit, but do not automatically gain the unit's rules unless stated otherwise. (For example, joining an IC to a squad that has Furious Charge from a formation does not automatically give that IC Furious Charge.)

 

If some models in a unit are able to assault but others are not, the unit is unable to assault (because, unlike shooting and moving, a whole unit makes an assault, not just parts of it.)

 

Q.E.D. a unit from the formation with an IC joined to it cannot launch an assault.

See, going back here, I agree with everything except the underlined. I think AP is misremembering the Assault rules and thinking of the heavy weapon restriction. It never mentions model specific restrictions in the assault rules. I had to look it up, as I said originally, in order to dispute it though.

[Guest]

See, going back here, I agree with everything except the underlined. I think AP is misremembering the Assault rules and thinking of the heavy weapon restriction. It never mentions model specific restrictions in the assault rules. I had to look it up, as I said originally, in order to dispute it though.

Did you miss my quote? Got to page 41 and look at the heavy weapon rules. They are specific to models being unable to assault.

 

The Assault Rules actually include only a list of "common reasons" you can't assault. This is the only time it uses units to refer to heavy weapon restrictions.

[pretre]

I will also note that throughout the formation Special rules, the 'Assault Squad' and 'unit' are terms used to refer to different things. The First the fire, then the blade special rule is very clear that it allows the assault squad from the skyhammer assault formation to charge after deep striking.

Misleading. Unit is used exactly once to refer to the squads in the formation and that is only when it refers to all of the squads in the formation (probably to simplify 'All assault squads, devastator squads and drop pods...')

 

References:

Para 1, 'Shock Deployment'. Units is used here to indicate everything in the formation.  Drop Pods is used to indicate the specific unit being referenced.

Para 2, First the.... Devastator Squads is used to reference the specific unit. Assault Squads is being used to reference the specific unit.

Para 3, Suppressing... Unit(s) is used to reference enemies. Devastator Squad is used to reference the specific unit. 

Para 4, Leave no ...  Assault Squad(s) is being used to reference the specific unit.

[Guest]

Shows what I know.

You totally had this one right, by the way. Didn't mean to not give credit.

[pretre]

Did you miss my quote? Got to page 41 and look at the heavy weapon rules. They are specific to models being unable to assault.

 

The Assault Rules actually include only a list of "common reasons" you can't assault. This is the only time it uses units to refer to heavy weapon restrictions.

No, in fact I've referenced it several times. No show me the same quote for Deep Strike that shows models. It doesn't exist. AP is, in my opinion, remembering the model specific language of the Heavy Weapon restriction and applying it to the rest of the assault rules, which is incorrect.

[pretre]

You totally had this one right, by the way. Didn't mean to not give credit.

No, he had one part of it right. He was right that Heavy Weapons prevent you by model, but not that all conditions prevent you by model.

[Steel Angel]

This is really not part of the debate but I never understood why they have one paragraph that saids you gain all the rules of a unit and then another paragraph it says you gain only some of the them.

[pretre]

"A unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge."

"Units that run in the shooting phase cannot charge in the following assault phase."

"A unit that is falling back cannot charge."

 

You'll note that only heavy weapons have the model exception.

[Guest]

This is really not part of the debate but I never understood why they have one paragraph that saids you gain all the rules of a unit and then another paragraph it says you gain only some of the them.

Talking about the IC rules? Yeah, they are a disaster. At one point it includes a line about how with the IC is alone he again becomes a unit of one, which is funny because at no other point prior, do they explain that ICs are a unit of 1.

[pretre]

This is really not part of the debate but I never understood why they have one paragraph that saids you gain all the rules of a unit and then another paragraph it says you gain only some of the them.

Specific versus general.

 

It basically says 'Counts as the unit for all rules purposes except this one purpose."

 

So for the purposes of assault, shooting, movement, you count as the unit. For the purposes of gaining FNP or Furious Charge, you do not.

[pretre]

Talking about the IC rules? Yeah, they are a disaster. At one point it includes a line about how with the IC is alone he again becomes a unit of one, which is funny because at no other point prior, do they explain that ICs are a unit of 1.

The descriptions of units explain that. As does the character rules 'Other characters...fight as units on their own.'

[Guest]

"A unit that has gone to ground cannot move, run or charge."

"Units that run in the shooting phase cannot charge in the following assault phase."

"A unit that is falling back cannot charge."

 

You'll note that only heavy weapons have the model exception.

Your still on that list....?

 

Read the bit at the top (pg45, second paragraph of Declare Charge). Here:

 

Some units are disallowed from charging. Common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge include:

A list of common reasons. How is this a definitive list?

[pretre]

Your still on that list....?

 

Read the bit at the top (pg45, second paragraph of Declare Charge). Here:

A list of common reasons. How is this a definitive list?

I'm giving other examples that would work similarly.

 

But let's be specific. Deep Strike says unit. Unit has permission. Done.

[Guest]

The descriptions of units explain that. As does the character rules 'Other characters...fight as units on their own.'

Wonderful, so it's not in the index under "unit" nor under "unit types" or "Independent characters," it's only in "characters"....? Just horrible, not even in the same section.

 

So I am looking at this, and it seems pretty clear that they are refering to characters that aren't ICs. ICs have their own rules on page 166, as mentioned in that section. The section for characters and assaults seems directed at characters that are within a unit, like the assault marine squad (Sergeant, or Veteran Sergeant). Just horrible job GW...

[pretre]

The unit purchased as part of the formation gets that ability. There is no option for an IC in that formation, therefore the IC doesn't get the abilities. This may just be my opinion, but it is how I would play it, and expect it to be played against me.

You are correct. The IC does not get the special rule. 

 

Fortunately, the IC is not charging. The UNIT is charging. The unit gets the special rule. The IC does not change that.

[pretre]

So I am looking at this, and it seems pretty clear that they are refering to characters that aren't ICs. ICs have their own rules on page 166, as mentioned in that section. The section for characters and assaults seems directed at characters that are within a unit, like the assault marine squad (Sergeant, or Veteran Sergeant). Just horrible job GW...

Independent characters are a sub-set of characters. They can be referring to both ICs and character that are not.

[pretre]

"Other Characters ... fight as units on their own"

Three sentences down

"Some characters have the independent character special rule, which allows them to join other units."

 

Pretty clear.

[Steel Angel]

I believe under IC rule somewhere saids follows these rule and other rules for characters. Dont have my book on me.

[Guest]

I'm giving other examples that would work similarly.

 

But let's be specific. Deep Strike says unit. Unit has permission. Done.

Deep strike? If your IC has deep strike, then he's allowed to deep strike with the unit as per the combine reserve unit and deep strike rules. Not disputing that.

 

Is your mixed unit allowed to declare a charge due to special rules that are being applied to a character who's special rules specifically state he doesn't get special rules of his joined unit? Sorry, no dice.

 

I will note that the formation is not required to assault. This is optional.

 

If you choose to add a character without the special rule that allows them to assault, the unit will contain a model that cannot assault. Not sure how it is that you think having a model that cannot assault in a unit would allow the unit to still assault.

 

For a metaphor, you are adding salt to food and complaining that it is salty. If you don't add the salt, it won't be salty.

[Steel Angel]

Sigh whats sad is if i had put as much study and work in school as I do in TRYING to learn these rules. I could buy GW now and just make them. Lol

[Guest]

Sigh whats sad is if i had put as much study and work in school as I do in TRYING to learn these rules. I could buy GW now and just make them. Lol

I do often wish I could have a class in school that was as engaging as our 40k debates.

[pretre]

Is your mixed unit allowed to declare a charge due to special rules that are being applied to a character who's special rules specifically state he doesn't get special rules of his joined unit? Sorry, no dice.

 

If you choose to add a character without the special rule that allows them to assault, the unit will contain a model that cannot assault. Not sure how it is that you think having a model that cannot assault in a unit would allow the unit to still assault.

You're wrong.

 

I laid it out and you're ignoring it. 

 

He doesn't get the special rules and doesn't need them. Model never comes into it (except with one specific rule, heavy weapons) because models don't assault; units assault. 

[Guest]

So, sake of argument. IC master of the forge from the old SM codex (since I lack the new one). He's got a heavy weapon and isn't relentless, but is an IC.

 

He fires the weapon in the shooting phase and his attached assault squad wants to then declare a charge (at the same target) in the assault phase.

 

Rules are pretty clear that the model cannot assault after firing the heavy weapon, but the UNIT didn't fire a heavy weapon, only the IC.

 

Character rules say that if the unit charges, the IC does too.

 

Can the unit charge?

[pretre]

So, sake of argument. IC master of the forge from the old SM codex (since I lack the new one). He's got a heavy weapon and isn't relentless, but is an IC.

 

He fires the weapon in the shooting phase and his attached assault squad wants to then declare a charge (at the same target) in the following assault phase.

 

Rules are pretty clear that the model cannot assault after firing the heavy weapon, but the UNIT didn't fire a heavy weapon, only the IC.

 

Character rules say that if the unit charges, the IC does too.

 

Can the unit charge?

No, as there is a specific prohibition. Models who fired heavy weapons can't charge (Shooting Rules). Additionally, units who fired heavy weapons can't charge (Assault Rules). This is a bad analogy because the rules are completely different.