AbusePuppy Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think I'm actually with Pax on this one- the formation doesn't give attached characters the ability to assault, as they do not automatically gain any special rules possessed by a squad that they join. You would have ten ASM who were allowed to charge and one Chapter Master/Dante/etc who was not, making the unit ineligible for launching an assault. And yeah, Fearless units (as well as Daemons and models which pass the check for any other reason) will still suffer the "unable to fire overwatch" penalty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yeah, they just wouldn't go to ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think I'm actually with Pax on this one- the formation doesn't give attached characters the ability to assault, as they do not automatically gain any special rules possessed by a squad that they join. You would have ten ASM who were allowed to charge and one Chapter Master/Dante/etc who was not, making the unit ineligible for launching an assault. And yeah, Fearless units (as well as Daemons and models which pass the check for any other reason) will still suffer the "unable to fire overwatch" penalty. I'll have to look at it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 And i realize now it says they may use their packs in the assault phase as well not shooting. Is this on lieu of making an assault Jump packs have a rule that if you just walk, move 6", in the movement phase you can use them in the assault phase. If you use them in the assault phase you can reroll charge distance (both dice not split like fleet) and you get hammer of wrath. Allowing you to move 12" and claim those benifits in the assault phase makes it pretty decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cortland Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So the turn they ds they can move 6 in assault and still charge??? Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Nah using the jump pack in the assault phase doesn't actually allow any movement. It simply adds special things to the charge/assault move units normally have (2d6 roll to move into contact). Jet things (jet bikes and jet pack) only get to move without charging in the assault phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So the turn they ds they can move 6 in assault and still charge??? Sorry No. they just get to drop and charge. The move and assault bit means they can move 12" in a normal movement phase and still reroll their charges in the assault phase. Normally they have to pick one or the other. If I can't use it as a charge delivery vehicle, I will rethink a couple things but still think I may try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Yeah not seeing unit language that would allow a smash master assault first turn ds. That at least is a balance factor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Storm talon is ten cheaper for any special weapon choices. Made a good unit even better. Also now can hover to get 3+ jink is really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 It is. I'm mostly leaving this conversation be though. Pax is right about USRs but wrong about this rule . I may come back to it Monday when I can get to rules quotes. I look forward to it, just because I'd love to have a clear understanding on how it is that you've justified your stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I look forward to it, just because I'd love to have a clear understanding on how it is that you've justified your stance. Rawr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 And now that AbusePuppy is against me, I'll probably just pass it and go with the lesser interpretation. He tends to be more up on rules than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So without character delivery, I'm thinking that assault squads are actually the weakest part of the force. Maybe something like Full Dev with MM in Pod Full Dev with MM in Pod 5 Assault with Flamer and MB 5 Assault with Flamer and MB Smashy unit from allied dex More Drop Pods Tie down your opponent with the devs, go after something weak with the assault and then assault whatever still is locked down on turn 2. Amusingly enough, this makes deep striking another assault unit turn 1 pretty nice since you can reliably tied down a good chunk of your opponents army turn 1 and then charge with them turn 2. Hmm. Void Claws? Large Grey Hunter Squads with a WGBL, Ulrik or Wolf Lord in them in a pod? TWC on the table? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Ravenwing Bikers out of the question? They only have teleport beacons, so it wouldn't help a pod/JP DS result. The AM/MT augur array would work, as would the skyshield landing pad, and scout bikers with a locator beacon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 And now that AbusePuppy is against me, I'll probably just pass it and go with the lesser interpretation. He tends to be more up on rules than I am. I would have totally missed AP's post if not for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 So without character delivery, I'm thinking that assault squads are actually the weakest part of the force. Maybe something like Full Dev with MM in Pod Full Dev with MM in Pod 5 Assault with Flamer and MB 5 Assault with Flamer and MB Smashy unit from allied dex More Drop Pods Tie down your opponent with the devs, go after something weak with the assault and then assault whatever still is locked down on turn 2. Amusingly enough, this makes deep striking another assault unit turn 1 pretty nice since you can reliably tied down a good chunk of your opponents army turn 1 and then charge with them turn 2. Hmm. Void Claws? Large Grey Hunter Squads with a WGBL, Ulrik or Wolf Lord in them in a pod? TWC on the table? I think the formation is pretty solid for first blood objectives, with a strong secondary role of tying up the opponent's ranged/support units. Really nasty if you go first. Some pretty solid maelstrom applications too. I will note that with combat squads, you should be able to charge 4 units and suppress 4 units. The main downside to the formation is if the opponent butchers your assault units in a single round, then consolidates even closer to your board edge, so for their turn, they've gained at least d6" of extra movement. That would be armies like chaos daemons, as the idea of your devastators arriving closer is ideal for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Even so charging turn 2 when rest of force closes the line seems like a more beneficial option. Can use assault squad as overwatch bate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think the formation is pretty solid for first blood objectives, with a strong secondary role of tying up the opponent's ranged/support units. Really nasty if you go first. Some pretty solid maelstrom applications too. I will note that with combat squads, you should be able to charge 4 units and suppress 4 units. The main downside to the formation is if the opponent butchers your assault units in a single round, then consolidates even closer to your board edge, so for their turn, they've gained at least d6" of extra movement. That would be armies like chaos daemons, as the idea of your devastators arriving closer is ideal for them... Keep in mind that it is nasty even if you go second. And yes, you can suppress and charge 4 units. Example: Shoot 2 Infantry units and 2 Heavy vehicles/infantry and make them g2g/die. Charge 2 vehicles with MB and 2 weak units or AV10 rear armor units. Potentially 8 threats killed / locked down. Also, you just don't charge something that's going to win too much. Lock them down on their turn. Maybe take WS for hit and run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Even so charging turn 2 when rest of force closes the line seems like a more beneficial option. Can use assault squad as overwatch bate. This is my big thing. I lock down half your army on turn 1 and then whatever is in the rest of my army charges you turn 2 largely unharmed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 This is my big thing. I lock down half your army on turn 1 and then whatever is in the rest of my army charges you turn 2 largely unharmed. Marines are the masters of up close attrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I'm a simplistic tactician, so maybe there are better uses for the formation, but I see it as a means of locking down units turn one, to allow a greater portion of my army to advance and engage on turn 2. I have a hard time imagining when I would ever use the formation to declare them coming in on turn 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I'm a simplistic tactician, so maybe there are better uses for the formation, but I see it as a means of locking down units turn one, to allow a greater portion of my army to advance and engage on turn 2. I have a hard time imagining when I would ever use the formation to declare them coming in on turn 2. That's a toughie. The most likely scenario is that you are forced to go first and your opponent null deploys. You hold it in reserve to come in turn 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 And it works for all sorts of things that can't Charge Turn 1. Scouts, Infiltrators, other Drop Units, Void Claws, lots of tasty combos there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted June 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Combat squad and hold back two assault units for turn 2 can be nice. Or even for maelstrom points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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