Circular Debates over Assault Rules - Was: New C:SM Stuff

[Guest]

So, just since we're talking about it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/652710.page

 

A debate on the issue. 

And that one's going south too. Starts out with actual rules quotes, then get's derailed by people that don't like the obvious rules quotes and start quoting more vague ones, as it leaves more room for argument.

 

Obvious quotes are that the BRB says ICs don't get special rules and the formation itself says they are special rules. There really isn't much room to debate with those two alone. But if we ignore them, we can get a long debating going...

 

Too bad SM players can't just be happy that they've got the only formation that can assault from reserves. Tyranid players would kill for a formation like this.

 

EDIT: we should totally start a betting event for how long the dakka dakka threads will last....like in pages...

[pretre]

Read my follow-up post. It counters the special rules transfer bit.

[pretre]

Secondary Counter-Point: If a formation gives all units in it the ability to run and shoot and you attach a IC to one of those units, does it lose the ability to run and shoot?

[Guest]

Read my follow-up post. It counters the special rules transfer bit.

It really doesn't.

 

The only way I see it where the attached IC can charge, is if the IC is already on the ground when joined to the deep striking unit (as in, didn't arrive from reserve that turn).

 

 

Secondary Counter-Point: If a formation gives all units in it the ability to run and shoot and you attach a IC to one of those units, does it lose the ability to run and shoot?

You've got this all wrong. The unit doesn't lose any rules because the IC is attached. The IC just doesn't gain the rules.

[pretre]

Okay, so here's the breakdown.

 

Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.

Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly. 

 

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.

Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

 

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes except for specific exceptions (like gaining special rules).

 

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

 

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.

Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

 

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.

Is the IC eligible to charge? No.

Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model. 

[Steel Angel]

Shrug either way you side best not to do till ruled on. Either by Gw (yer right) or more likely ITC.

[Guest]

Okay, so here's the breakdown.

 

Do IC's gain the special rules of the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.

Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Does she gain the FNP rule? Clearly not.

Example 2: Celestine joins a guard blob with a commissar. Does she gain the stubborn rule? Clearly. 

 

Do IC's remove special rules from the unit they join? Clearly no, unless this is laid out in the special rule itself.

Example: Celestine joins a unit of Death Company. Do they lose the FNP rule? Clearly not.

 

Do IC's count as part of a unit for all rules purposes? Clearly yes. An IC counts as a unit for all rules purposes except for specific exceptions (like gaining special rules).

 

When is a model ineligible for charging? Models don't charge units do.

 

When is a unit ineligible for charging? Locked, Ran, G2G, Shot prohibited weapons, falling back, changed flight modes.

Also, under Deep Strike: 'In that turn's assault phase, however these units cannot charge'

 

Is the assault squad eligible to charge? Yes, the unit has a special rule allowing it.

Is the IC eligible to charge? No.

Is the IC charging? No, the unit is charging. The IC is considered part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Does his lack of special rules matter? No, since the unit is charging, not the model. 

 

 

Since it's been a bit:

 

Where are you seeing the UNIT term in the rule that grants them the ability to assault when they arrive from reserve?

 

It is extremely specific in the "First the fire, then the blade" SPECIAL RULE that it applies to the ASSAULT SQUAD.

 

An IC is not the ASSAULT SQUAD. He is not given the ability to charge after arriving from deep strike. This is as clearly written as I've ever seen GW rules.

[pretre]

The IC becomes part of the assault squad for all rules purposes except special rules.

 

Does the assault squad have permission to assault? Yes.

Does the IC have permission to assault? No.

Is the IC assaulting? No, models don't assault, units do.

Can the assault squad still assault? Yes.

[pretre]

Shrug either way you side best not to do till ruled on. Either by Gw (yer right) or more likely ITC.

I agree.

[Steel Angel]

Just to state a squad is a unit. So saids the rule book.

 

Just adding an FYI nothing more.

[Guest]

I thought that if one model in a unit couldn't charge, then the whole unit couldn't? Like if everyone had pistols, but one missile launcher in the squad fired, that whole unit couldn't charge? Seems a bit shady to me.

You are sort of correct and it is a really interesting point.

 

Heavy weapons don't allow the MODEL to charge in the following assault phase.

 

The Assault rules, as Pretre says, are specific to UNITs and include no notes regarding units which contain models that cannot assault.

 

My brain hurts. This reminds me of the FNP debates in 5th.

[pretre]

I thought that if one model in a unit couldn't charge, then the whole unit couldn't? Like if everyone had pistols, but one missile launcher in the squad fired, that whole unit couldn't charge? Seems a bit shady to me.

 The Assault rules says 'The unit shot Rapid Fire, Salvo, Ordnance or Heavy'. It does not consider a model, it considers whether the unit did something. 

 

Did the unit deep strike? Yes.

Does that block assault? yes.

Does the unit have a rules exception? Yes.

Can the unit assault? Yes.

[pretre]

Heavy weapons don't allow the MODEL to charge in the following assault phase.

 

The Assault rules, as Pretre says, are specific to UNITs and include no notes regarding units which contain models that cannot assault.

 

 

First sentence is wrong, see my previous post.

Second sentence is correct.

[Guest]

Just to state a squad is a unit. So saids the rule book.

 

Just adding an FYI nothing more.

Looked this one up too. Page 9. Horrible paragraph from a rules standpoint.

 

 

Units

Warriors tend to band together to fight in squads, teams, sections, or similarly named groups - individuals do not normally go wandering off on their own on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium for obvious reasons! In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units. A unit usually consists of several models that have banded to together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in it's own right,

And that is how 40k defines units in the BRB....So very useless.

 

 

First sentence is wrong, see my previous post.

You're looking at the assault rules, in their list of "Common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge."

 

Look at the rules for heavy weapons on page 41. Last sentence:

 

 

Models that shoot with heavy weapons in the Shooting phase cannot charge in the ensuing Assault Phase.

[Steel Angel]

Well since we're still going.

 

You attach a Ic before deployment. The AS does not gain charge rule till thier deployment from reserve. Per ic rulees he can gain any rule or benefits a unit gains if he is part of the unit before.

 

can be debate still

[pretre]

You're looking at the assault rules, in their list of "Common reasons a unit is not allowed to declare a charge."

 

Look at the rules for heavy weapons on page 41. Last sentence:

Okay. So where does it say 'Models that deep struck in the movement phase cannot charge in the following assault phase'?

[pretre]

You attach a Ic before deployment. The AS does not gain charge rule till thier deployment from reserve. Per ic rulees he can gain any rule or benefits a unit gains if he is part of the unit before.

 

 

That's actually not correct. They get the special rule by being chosen as part of the formation. The special rule triggers 'On the turn they arrive from deep strike'.

[Guest]

Well since we're still going.

 

You attach a Ic before deployment. The AS does not gain charge rule till thier deployment from reserve. Per ic rulees he can gain any rule or benefits a unit gains if he is part of the unit before.

 

can be debate still

So lost.

 

Special Rules are part of the formation (and the models within) in the list building stage. Whether used or not, the special rules are there all game (and prior to the game).

 

The IC can join a reserve unit in the deployment step, as per the rules for Combined Reserve Units on page 135.

[pretre]

You'll note that several times the Deep Strike rules specify 'Models', but not for the assault restriction.

[Guest]

Okay. So where does it say 'Models that deep struck in the movement phase cannot charge in the following assault phase'?

That one is actually worded as units.

[Guest]

Still doesn't change anything.

[Steel Angel]

That's actually not correct. They get the special rule by being chosen as part of the formation. The special rule triggers 'On the turn they arrive from deep strike'.

My mistake read gained not have. You are coerect

[pretre]

That one is actually worded as units.

Exactly.

 

The unit is charging, not the models. It changes everything. If it said 'Models that arrived by deep strike can't charge.' I would agree with you. It doesn't. Note the wording at the beginning of the Deep Strike entry 'All models must have the deep strike rule'. Contrast that with the assault part at the end 'these units cannot charge'. Hmm. Different words...

[pretre]

As an aside, you're actually convincing me more the more you post, pax. I was pretty anti-allowing ICs after AP first chimed in and shot it down. Now, I'm on the side of allowing it.

[Steel Angel]

Its the infiltrate rule debate all over again. Best to just wait for ruleing. As we know though rulings can go either and sometimes thier own way. Look how infiltrate went.