Romes

First it's worth noting that Jacob was far enough ahead of second place that even if he'd paid a 40 comp undeath tax instead of a 24 comp tax he would still be ahead for general. This means that even if the tax on his list had been 16 higher, he still would have won. Having talked to him about the event, the big advantage the list had was not lack of familiarity with tomb kings, but rather lack of familiarity with how to deal with lore of Undeath being used by a player attempting to maximize it's potential. Undeath punishes the "wait and see" mentality that many players adopt when dealing with a new build across the table. Second, Swedish encourages players to take experimental builds that would otherwise be sub-optimal but are comp efficient. This increases list diversity, which is not same same as "breaking" the comp. I took an experimental build too, though mine backfired. Third, as far as the event history, there have been 2 national master's events thus far. Last year it was won by middle of the road, mostly infantry, mixed arms, a little bit of everything, high elves. He built a army that was efficient (not broken) and played it well. Note that he was ALSO on table 1 round 6 this year, with basically the same inoffensive build. It's easy to judge a game from a third party viewpoint afterwards to look for mistakes, but the people rising to the top here are good players taking solid lists.

If you take out the warlocks it's above an 8. =P This list is way nicer than the legions list I was considering that comped higher. But I miss playing DE, no matter how much the swedes dislike them. It's nowhere close to the minimum.

Regular old Dark Elves Dreadlord General Dark Steed Giant Blade Dawnstone Other Trickster's Shard Heavy Armor, Cloak, Shield Supreme Sorceress Shadow Lvl 4 Dark Steed Dispel Scroll Master Dark Pegasus Cloak of Twilight Lance, Heavy Armor, Cloak, shield Master Dark Steed Luckstone Potion of Foolhardiness Lance, Heavy Armor, Cloak, shield Battle Standard Bearer Death Hag Cauldron of Blood Death Hag Sword of Anti-Heroes Witch Elves 28x FCG Banner of Swiftness Dark Riders 11x Bows, shields FCG Shades 7x Banner Harpies 5x Repeater Bolt Thrower Repeater Bolt Thrower Warlocks 8x

I've added a link to the main post to a thread with about a hundred pictures of the armies on display at masters.

Sure. Note that spirit leech uses unmodified leadership, so doesn't interact with reductions. (but is still a great spell!) Casket does, because it forces a leadership test.

I think fear is kinda meh right now. A significant number of your opponents will be immune to it, and a lot of the models that matter in other armies will be too. It's a great free bonus, but kinda unstable to build around.

BSB matters for quick reform re-rolls and combat reform re-rolls, which are both still important important. I agree with the wight king BSB

NTK, That all makes sense, thank you for the well thought out reply. I think I would challenge the idea that both players who want to play competitively and players who want to play more cooperatively should ever need to split off. Here's why: First, I've seen this term on this forum a lot, WAAC, or "win at all costs". All costs is very broad, and I think this can refer to people who build a list to be as competitive as possible (within a comp)*, and people who play the game in a way that is unsportsmanlike. To me these are very different, and should be addressed separately (I'll only be talking about the first). If you consider these behaviors inherently different, and you exclusively look at being inclusive between people who find competitive list building to be a rewarding part of the hobby and those who would rather take whatever feels fun to them, than I think comp *can* handle that. I totally agree with you that any list not designed with Swedish breakpoints in mind can be made more powerful by optimization. However, I think that the goal should be that a handicapping system that, if well enough written, should make the power difference between an optimized list and a non-optimized list small enough that the player who does not enjoy the competitive list building aspect (or the non-WAAC player) is not left significantly handicapped on the table by the difference in power level. However, I realize that the jury is still out on whether or not it's possible to make a comp good enough to do that. *I say within a comp because the power level of lists in no comp are so drastically different that it is possible to build lists which are not challenging to win the game with against players not attempting to do the same, which (to me) defeats the point if your goal is to be playing a competitive game (see Kairos/Epidemus combo). This causes separate issues, which I could ramble about at length! TLDR for that ramble - most of the hyper-competitive personalities I've played with prefer heavy comp systems because it puts everyone on the same page. My worry is that the feeling or need to break off groups of players ultimately stems from the vast power level differences available in a truly no comp setting. I think OFCC taking Swedish and modifying it for use in your format goes a long way toward resolving the issue. It seems like a huge foward step and I look forward to seeing how it plays out this year.

Please note that Lore of Undeath was JUST included in the Swedish system. Using it as an example of swedish being "easily abused" is a bit unfair. I would characterize it this way: Swedish is a continually evolving system that has a strong tendency to undercomp new things because they haven't been out and developed sufficiently. The most undercomped armies in swedish tend to be newer books, because they've had the least exposure to the system. Last year at masters Dark elf lists got away with a lot by "abusing" the comp, and all of that was fixed within the next couple of months. So, was Lore of Undeath/TK a brilliant move/abuse (depending on how you look at it)? Sure was. However, it worked because of the window of time in which it occurred, and is not really an example of how easy it is to abuse the system, which I don't think it is. The problem with falling back to player preference as for whats fun is that player preference is highly subjective. What's fun depends on who your are, what your biases are, and what armies you play. This leads to strong personalities pushing individual preferences over game balance. For example, (theoretical) I HATE playing against cannons, so if I was responsible for "self comping" I would feel I could never take more than one, and then if my opponent took 2 (which swedish does allow, as you pay a penalty) I would think that list was unfun. My opponent may not. Depending on our personalities that may cause conflict because we think the other player is being "gamey" (I strongly dislike that label) I believe a neutral, external system is a better final backstop for lists than relying on self audits for this reason. Note that I think self audit/manual audit systems are OK, (and I really like the black sheep system), but I think they have bias issues which people tend to gloss over.

Knights are good too.

I recommend getting a small version of the core rulebook from the island of blood set on ebay. Should be about $20. Then you need the army book. The end times supplements are supplements, and for most armies I would say are totally unneeded, however, since you're talking about tomb kings - the suppliment is more needed than for other armies as it changes a couple core rules that hold the army back. (marching and crumbling). Another option is to get some models you know you'll need, start painting, and wait a couple months. =P

Tomb kings are one of the weaker armies in the game at the moment, though they do gain a lot from undead legions options. There are a limited number of viable tomb kings builds, but they do exist. As far as losing every game - if you're playing pretty casual players it's not an issue. You started with a couple blocks of skeleton archers and casters, and 2 stonethrowers and a casket of souls, and go from there. Tomb kings have a strong magic phase, and are very weak as an aggressive army, so you have to be OK with that. Alternately you could start a vampire counts army with primarily skeletal elements (they also get skeletons in core). VC is a very versatile army with a lot of good builds. Unfortunately the truely outstanding (visually) skeletal models are the new moghast - and those are Undead Legions. The other thing to consider is that VC and tomb kings may be combined permanently in the near future, meaning if you started a tomb king army, other options can open up when 9th drops.

I've added a link to Raffazza's blog reviewing the NE lists to the front page. I hope he's wrong!

No conga lining dark riders, hah! I have one or more units that can legitimately claim max rank combat bonuses. 0.0 25 CoK would be epic!

5. =P

Haha no, non-end times, no special characters, DE. Didn't even go "host of the eternity king" for the random free rank of attack bonuses.

List submitted. First time I'll be breaking out my Dark Elves on this coast! Now to find the right boxes...

Glad people have been checking them out! Remember that it's not just one gaming community, the commentators are mostly not in the US (Sweden, Denmark, UK, Australia), and seem to be on the same page. But, they all tend to have similar understandings of what works and what doesn't based on whats worked a lot before in tournaments. This means some of the stuff that the PNW guys are choosing, that fall outside that box, look sub-optimal. But that's not just with PNW - other regions too. When you're just working from the sheet, lists that most clearly fit within the traditional builds are most likely to be seen as good. Of those in our region, Peter's list is a good example of this, it looks like every other lizard list, and it's a tried and true strategy, there's very little doubt the list is solid. When you have the paper to go on, and have to make a prediction, you're usually going to end picking the thing you know works. When it's not players I know & lists I've played, I end up agreeing with most of their suggestions about matches from the other regions, probably for the same reason. I totally agree with you all that a lot of people will be in for a surprise. Can't wait! I'll post again when more coverage comes out.

I think you will have more fun playing with a magic phase =)

Yes, I'll post a link here, but they'll be on the wargamers USA site. Last weekend was just the first round pairings videos. The event Feb 21 and Feb 22. There should be round by round results, on wargamersusa, as well as some media coverage during the event.

Thanks! I'm pretty happy they were confused. =) Glad you were able to watch the videos!

I'll be there with the list I"m testing for next weekend.Would love to get a couple practicet games in.

new link for live feed, starts 5:30 https://plus.google.com/+OnceBitten360/posts

Videos will be posted on: https://www.youtube.com/user/OnceBitten360/videos

Have you ever wanted to play a Warhammer tournament with super cool people from all over the region in a game store so big the "tournament room" fits 50 people? Do you want to bring a free unit that gets better stats based on how you play with it over the weekend? Would you like the venue to have an attached restaurant, bar, and coffee bar? If only such a thing existed! Well now it does! Sparkle Party Death Match 6 - The Regiments of Renown A Warhammer Fantasy Battles Tournament and Painting Competition A PNW Region, US Masters qualifier. Link to main site Date: April 11-12, 2015 Location: Mox Boarding House 13310 Bel-Red Road Bellevue, WA (425) 326-3050 Cost: $30 Tickets @: https://spdm.eventbrite.com Five secret mission based games. Warhammer 8th Edition rules and most current Games Workshop Errata and FAQ’s will be used. (Subject to change if 9th drops prior) Army Selection: 2500 points PLUS one FREE unit called a Regiment of Renown (Click here for those rules) Players may choose to play either: Any End Times legion with NO Scrolls of Binding, Sorcerous Pacts or Forge World rules. OR Any current Games Workshop army book WITH Scrolls of Binding, Sorcerous Pacts and Forge World rules. Scrolls of Binding and Sorcerous Pacts may be taken using their normal restrictions from the Special choice allowance. Forge World rules should be included as specified. The Following Warhammer Fantasy Supplements and Rules are allowed: • Storm of Magic: Scrolls of Binding* • Storm of Magic: Sorcerous Pacts* (*Special Note: Scrolls of Binding and Sorcerous Pacts may be taken using their normal restrictions from the Special choice allowance) • Battle Scrolls (Special Note: Official releases from the Black Library Digital Editions only) The Following Forge World books and units are allowed to be used: • Tamurkhan, Throne of Chaos • Forgeworld: Ogre Kingdoms - Grimhorn Rhinox Riders • Forgeworld: Orcs & Goblins – Night Goblin Squig Gobba • Forgeworld: Monstrous Arcanum Any and all casters are allowed to take Lore of Undeath but I will be STRICTLY enforcing WYSIWYG for all raised units. Raised unit need not be painted but the MUST be the appropriate model (creative conversions to match your army are okay) or it simply may not be raised absolutely no exceptions! Closed army lists. So you do not have to disclose magic items, big names, virtues, bloodline powers, fanatics, ambushers, etc. before the game. All normal unit upgrades should be disclosed before the game. Magic users must have their lore choice noted on their army list entry. Terrain All terrain is mundane and will be pre-arranged. Painting and Models You may play with unpainted models but if you do so you are not eligible to win Best Painted or Best Overall Non-Games Workshop models may be used but must clearly represent the model/unit type* All units of more than one model MUST have appropriately sized movement trays. This includes Skirmishers and Flying Cavalry. The trays can be made from cereal boxes but you MUST have them. All models must be on a base the size normally provided for them Weapons, armor options and general upgrades chosen from the army list must be shown on the majority of the models in a unit. If you have models with great weapons, the majority must be armed that way, the same thing goes with shields and missile weapons* Models created by spells or abilities must be represented by the appropriate models*. Dice counters at the back of a unit will not be allowed. If you do not have the models then the spell or ability simply may not be used * Proxies are not allowed. If you are not sure then it is best to check it with me beforehand to avoid problems later. Painting Contest ($50 cash prize!) Your Regiment of Renown. The contest is open to those who do not play in the tournament. Props and Phat Lewts Prizes will be awarded for first, second and third place in the following. Cash prizes will be awarded to the first place winner in each category. • Best Overall. If tied the player with the highest sportsmanship score will win. • Best Sportsman. If tied the player with the lowest battle points total will win. • Best Painted Army. If tied the player with the highest number of players choice votes wins. • Best General. If tied the player with the highest paint score wins. • Painting Contest. This time with 2nd and 3rd places. Open to non-players. • Random Raffle. Players only. Must be present at time of drawing to win.