A Humble Proposal: Let's Fix Nids

[fluger]

Here's my simple fix for the Nid dex to make it competitive.  

 

1.  Change Regeneration to give the model FnP.  

 

2.  Change Catalyst so that if either the caster or the target already had FnP it is improved by (most likely becomes 4+)

 

Now that 20 pt upgrade makes sense to take, and most Nid players would do it in a heartbeat to keep their synapse alive and give their MCs more survivability.  

 

It requires very little more than an errata, and it pushes the dex into seriously competitive levels without making it broken.  

 

Thoughts?  

 

Pumpkinhead, you're my regular Nid opponent, what would YOU think of doing that?  I'd like to try it out.  

[CaptainA]

Enable book powers and allies with self.

[fluger]

I really don't think either of those would help much.  

 

Biomancy is nice, obviously, but comparing it directly to the Nid list doesn't do it any favors.  Catalyst is better than Endurance for the most part since it effects two units and the primaris power is more universally useful.  Factor in that most of the Nid units are going to be Lvl1 or MAYBE lvl2 pskyers and you aren't really getting a lot of value there.  

 

As to allying with themselves, that's cute, and I could see it working, but it isn't really a great solution beyond being able to get a 4th HS and Elite.  

 

What I like about my proposal is that it isn't a significant change to anything beyond the reading of two different things.  Very simple and really helps.  

[Guest]

So book is out for a month and you can't figure out how to use it, so the plan is to stop using the book as written?

-Pax

[WestRider]

Some things are pretty easy to see that they're broken. Why wait to fix them?

 

I think the big bugs mostly just need some minor tweaks, and better IB Rules would make the little stuff fine. It's the mid-size stuff that's screwed no matter how you look at it.

 

That said, adding in FNP would make Regen actually worth the 30 (not 20) Points for it.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Also book only been out for a week to this date. It is clear it is lacking. There is some good builds that haven't seen the light of day I'm sure.

 

I like the suggestion, fnp would be nice versus gaining extra rule. More diverse psychic powers would be nice, not just book, seems odd I get one table when we have so many psykers.

[intrizic]

what if synapse gave FNP?

starts at a 0+ for the first synapse unit, improves by 1 for each additional Synapse unit to some maximum, not necessarily 2+

During game play if you lose a synapse unit the FNP roll gets worse, ex; the FNP roll is a 3+ lose enough synapse, goes to a 4+, lose more synapse goes to a 5+ etc.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

That would be awesome but I think it would break nids even if capped at 4+. I thinkincreasing range of synapse to base 18 or even 24 would shore up a lot of problems.

[Guest]

Also book only been out for a week to this date. It is clear it is lacking. There is some good builds that haven't seen the light of day I'm sure.

A week....and already this much issue? Has anyone even played? Or is it theory hammer annoyances?

 

I did read through the book. Nothing is amazing in there, but it certainly isn't as bad as suggested. I like the IB rules, much kinder than the old IB rules. Shadows is pretty balanced and makes good sense from a fluff standpoint. Synapse has a max range of 30" which is nothing to laugh at. Psychic powers are pretty awesome too.

 

Honestly, I think the new codex is a great sequel to the previous one. What the bug players are annoyed isn't the change from one book to the next, but the change from one FAQ to the current book, as it is the FAQ that was allowing use of BRB psychic powers.

-Pax

[WestRider]

 

 

I like the IB rules, much kinder than the old IB rules.

This right here just lost you all credibility in this discussion. The new IB Rules are brutal, especially Feed, but Lurk and Hunt both have serious potential to be game losers. A 1/6 chance of getting a minor buff does not in any way outweigh the penalties you suffer the other 5/6 of the time.

 

You seem to be too caught up on what's possible to understand what's actually going to happen 5 times out of 6. That 30" Synapse Net? Happens 1 time in 6, IF you've dumped at least 200 Points (and more likely 400 including Guard) into a Tyrant who's going to be the number one target on the board and not going to be able to to act offensively because he's too vital to holding your Synapse Net together.

 

The Psychic Powers are decent, but unreliable. There's far too much chance of getting what you need, but on the wrong Models. The weak Primaris doesn't help.

[Guest]

This right here just lost you all credibility in this discussion. The new IB Rules are brutal, especially Feed, but Lurk and Hunt both have serious potential to be game losers. A 1/6 chance of getting a minor buff does not in any way outweigh the penalties you suffer the other 5/6 of the time.

IB rules are not brutal.

 

First, reasons to not to test are more than in last edition. You don't test if gone to ground, if fleeing, if in combat or if arriving from reserve. 4 ways to ignore IB without needing synapse. Going to ground is often voluntary as a reaction to being shot, so it's not too hard to ignore IB tests if you really find them so brutal.

 

Second, you must fail a leadership check, before rolling on the table for IB. For leadership tests, see this link

 

3rd, IB types (feed. lurk, hunt) all are themed around the unit's intended role. In example, rippers have feed. All three types have 1 effect on a 1, and a different effect on a 2-6, with an added bonus on the 6.

-Lurkers failing morale on a 1 is good, as it gives them extra speed to get back to synapse (which should be backfield). The 2-6 is well suited for terrain campers.

-Hunters are shooty units. Fearless models take no pentalties here, other than being unable to charge and having to shoot the nearest target in TLOS. Non-fearless models go 2 ground on a 1, which is hardly a problem.

-Feeders are melee units. On a 2-6 they move and charge, but can't shoot. A bit annoying, but assaulters assaulting shouldn't be a problem. On a 1 they strike themselves, now unlike other attacks where the unit hit's itself, hits are AP-, use majority non-melee strength, and only 1 hit per model. This means a dramatic increase in survivability for rippers and skyslashers to IB, plus most multi-wound units won't lose entire models. Single wound models will be dramatically impaired. The other bit, is that the unit can't assault or shoot or move this turn. This one is bad, but odds are pretty low.

 

So, odds to get a 1 on feed are not 1 in 6, as the model must first fail leadership. So, in example, a brood of hormagaunts is leadership 6. So, you have ~ a 6/10 (58.33%) chance to fail the leadership, followed by a 1/6 to get the canibalistic hunger. All this assumes that you didn't choose to go to ground in the opponent's shooting phase, aren't fleeing, aren't in assault, didn't just arrive from reserve, and aren't in synapse range. Sounds pretty easy to avoid that result if it terrifies you so. Rest of the feed rolls, the horms are still moving and charging, which is why you purchase them, right?

-Pax

[fluger]

What IB rules are you reading, Pax?  

 

 

INSTINCTIVE BEHAVIOUR TABLES

INSTINCTIVE BEHAVIOUR (LURK)

 

D6 - Lurk Result

1-3 - Survive: The Tyranids’ survival instincts take over and they turn tail and flee the battlefield.

 

The unit is treated as having failed a Morale test and must immediately Fall Back.

 

4-5 - Seek Cover: The brood immediately seeks out shelter to hide from the enemy, ignoring the foe until they are safely concealed from their eyes.

 

In the Movement phase, the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain, though its models must take Dangerous Terrain tests as normal. In the Shooting phase, the unit can Run, but it can only shoot if it is in a building or area terrain (if the unit is partially within area terrain, only those models within area terrain are allowed to shoot). The unit cannot charge in the Assault phase.

 

6 - Stalk: The Tyranids blend seamlessly into the shadows, stalking their prey from safety until the right time to strike presents itself.

 

This follows all the rules for Seek Cover (above). In addition, the unit gains the Stealth special rule.

 

INSTINCTIVE BEHAVIOUR (HUNT)

 

D6 - Hunt Result

1-3 - Burrow and Hide: Without the Hive Mind’s direction, the brood burrows to protect itself from enemy fire.

 

The unit immediately Goes to Ground. Units that contain at least one model with the Fearless special rule treat this result as Prowl (below), instead.

 

4-5 - Prowl: The Tyranids’ instincts take over and they advance in search of foes to hunt with their bio-weapons.

 

In the Shooting phase, the unit cannot Run and must instead shoot at the closest enemy unit that is within range and line of sight of at least one model in the Tyranid unit. If there is no viable target, the Tyranid unit can do nothing during the Shooting phase. The unit cannot charge in the Assault phase.

 

6 - Destroy: The brood catches the scent of fresh prey on the wind and they become hyper-actively agitated, bio-weapons spitting death until the prey is utterly destroyed.

 

This follows all the rules for Prowl (above). In addition, the unit gains the Preferred Enemy special rule.

 

INSTINCTIVE BEHAVIOUR (FEED)

 

D6 - Feed Result

1-3 - Cannibalistic Hunger: On the verge of starvation and desperate to sate their gnawing hunger, the Tyranids turn upon themselves.

 

The unit immediately suffers a number of hits equal to the number of models in that unit. These hits are resolved using the unit’s majority Strength (if drawn, use the highest) and AP-. Wounds are allocated by the owning player and armour saves (but not cover saves) may be taken. After resolving casualties (if any) the unit can do nothing else until the end of its turn. Units consisting of only a single model treat this result as Devour (below), instead.

 

4-5 - Devour: Driven by their instincts, the Tyranids hurl themselves at the closest prey they can find, teeth and claws eager to bite into flesh.

 

In the Shooting phase, the unit cannot shoot or Run. In the Assault phase, if the unit is able to declare a charge, it must do so against the closest viable enemy unit. If the unit cannot declare a charge, it does nothing in the Assault phase.

 

6 - Kill: The brood’s ravenous hunger sends them into a murderous frenzy.

 

This follows all the rules for Devour (above). In addition, the unit gains the Rage special rule.

 

 

Lurking units fail morale 50% of the time.  Feeding units just kill themselves basically 50% of the time.  Hunting units GtG 50% of the time.  

 

All the results except for the 6 are bad and even they aren't that good.  

 

I have no idea how this can be remotely better than the old IB for Feeding units which gained Rage and nothing else.  How in the WORLD is that better?  

[WestRider]

All four of those conditions ignored IB in the previous Dex, too. Also, the negatives kick in on a 1-3, not just a 1. Then 4-5 is mildly bad, and a 6 is the mildly bad plus a little bonus.

 

Not to mention that all of those are unquestionably drawbacks.

 

- Lurk requires that you maintain a backfield Synapse Net. It's no longer possible to go all in on offense or leave Gaunts out of sight as Backfield Objective Campers. It means that Lictors operating ahead of the Swarm will randomly decide to just run away some times. Even the mild results can mean that you can't shoot, and they mean you can't Charge, which just wastes Lictors.

- Hunt can mean that your Biovores or Hive Guard just decide to hit the dirt for no apparent reason. Or it can mean your Exocrine decides to shoot the Scouts right in front of it instead of the Honour Guard behind them that you really needed to kill. Plenty of the Hunt Units are pretty good in Combat, too, and losing the option to Charge is going to hurt.

- Feed, half the time, causes your dudes to eat each other. Even if they don't do any damage (likely for, say, a Fex Brood), they still just stand around doing nothing for the rest of the Turn. Even on the mild result, they can't Run if they're too far away to Charge something, and can't pick their target, but have to Charge the nearest Unit.

 

Letting your opponent decide your target priority is bad. Not being able to control what your dudes do is bad. Especially because these are likely to come into play later on during the Game, when your Army's shot apart and scattered to hell and gone and you need everything doing its best if you're going to claw this one out.

 

Previous version, Lurk was kind of lame sometimes, especially for Hive Guard and Biovores, who sometimes wouldn't have LoS because they can normally fire indirectly. But it was never more than obnoxious. Feed, on the other hand, was a straight up benefit, no drawbacks. You just got what is currently the bonus for getting a 6, without the drawback of having to Charge the closest Unit or not being able to Run if you were too far away.

[Chaos Lord Chris]

As far as I'm concerned the new Nid book is Codex: Really Cool Kill-Teams. In fact I'm buying some just for kill team games, because they look like they will actually be decent both in the GW and HoR rulesets.

 

But in real games, unless my opponent is running a really min-maxed list, I'm probably going to intentionally take some really sub-optimal stuff that I wouldn't normally run just to make it fair, because... wow. The codex just doesn't have very many reasonably priced good options and breaking the synapse net will cause certain army builds to just self-destruct.

[Guest]

Hmmm...yeah, fail on reading comprehension. Much higher odds of fail. Was pretty sure it was 1, not 1-3...but its as you say when I reread it.

 

Pretty sure the gone to ground thing is new for the IB. Maybe it just switched from pinning to gone to ground, which is a bit different in function, as you can voluntarily go to ground when shot at.

 

I'd note that the Lurk thing does say both closest and in TLOS, and that's after moving, so you could control this one a bit by moving towards a target, or moving out of LOS of a target.

 

I'll also note that both the lurk and the feed rule both use the term "viable" to refer to targets. I can certainly see online debating with this concept of what is viable and what isn't.

 

Anyway, for synapse, you can find a synapse unit in every slot of the normal FOC. The synapse models themselves don't test for it, so you could eliminate IB entirely from the list if you really wanted by just fielding all synapse models. Perhaps not the ideal solution, but that would be an option for sure.

 

I do think that the issue isn't that this codex sucks over the last one, it's that this codex sucks over the FAQ and BRB changes to the list. If they had released this at the start of 6th, you wouldn't be complaining.

-Pax

[fluger]

Anyway, for synapse, you can find a synapse unit in every slot of the normal FOC. The synapse models themselves don't test for it, so you could eliminate IB entirely from the list if you really wanted by just fielding all synapse models. Perhaps not the ideal solution, but that would be an option for sure.

Yes, but you are forced to buy units that do little else than make everything work as it is supposed to.  No other codex has such widespread negatives and lack of control on your own army without paying bonus for, essentially, HQs.  

 

What if all IG units started running away if you killed the command squads?  

 

In a vacuum, most of the Nid units are fine, but when you start realizing how many points you have to pay to make sure the whole thing is in synapse range, you realize you're working with less actual points.  

 

As to not complaining if this dex came out first, yes, that is true.  Like I said from the getgo, this dex is about on par with most of the 6th ed codexes.  Tau and Eldar just continue to be head and shoulders above the rest in terms of take all comers, competitive builds.  

[fluger]

I think my biggest complaint is that the dex just doesn't seem like that much of a departure from the last.  Look at all the stuff that changed from the Tau codex to the next, or the Eldar codex to the newest one, or the Daemon one.  Nids could have been radically different, but weren't.  They flat out didn't change several units which NEEDED to be changed, and made arbitrary point adjustments.  Are ripper swarms tearing up GW HQ?  Why did they go UP in points!??!! 

[generalripphook]

Change regen to FNP

 

Why not change catalyt to- FNP but if given to a unit with FNP it gains the current regen rule.

 

You could also create something where as biomatter is devoured the unit gains stat improvements based on their IB type. So similar to dark elves but based on model count (with bulky counting as 2, very bulky as 3)

 

Also spore launchers, where the unit forgoes shooting to cloud the air with spores stopping all overwatch from models within 6 inches of where they are as spores clog gun barrels.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

This dex lost units from last dex that in itself just plain sucks. Did any of the other 6th lose units?

 

I do think it compares to others but losing options is never fun. Don't say replace, because that is bs, all other dexes got new units too.

 

It's frustrating to play an army where if you lose certain units you no longer get to play the rest, you instead refer to table to tell you what to do. Glad you see your math was off by quite a bit.

 

I like the synapse option, it makes sense. I like random tables, but when yoit leadership is crap you can count on losing control the majority of the time. I think boosting all units to of 8 would make ib less of a pronounced issue.

 

Yes I can take aok synapse. the units I like do not have synapse. This is like back in 4th dexes where you had entries that were +1. I don't know about you but I didn't like that mechanic.

 

I plan to play this dex for a long while, but you have to realize this army has the most limits to it and the least rewards for that. nids are entirely isolated from all the other options the other armies get with no replacements. it would be like da could not ally, and had access to no book powers and was required to take only deathwing composition or ravening composition, no bikes and terms together.

[Guest]

This dex lost units from last dex that in itself just plain sucks. Did any of the other 6th lose units?

You mean the pods and the special characters?

 

I'm pretty sure the pods is a result of the chapter house suit, as there was some debate if GW could produce it's own version of models that were made based on GW books. That's why GW's been keen to produce only codex entries with actual models for sale upon release. The pods were built by a few companies, so it was unclear if GW can make their own...

 

As for the special characters, the tyranid codex seems to always gain some and lose some every codex. I also wouldn't be too surprised if a tyranid supplement brings back the other special characters.

 

Were other units lost?

 

As for other books losing entries, My inquisition really took a beating from the WH/DH to the GK/INQ books. Most of the models I had for those are either dramatically different, or got removed, or got merged with other units. I think the IG lost the last chancers unit from the last codex to the current one. Necrons have been changing dramatically in each codex change. My CSM and CD are so different that I'm not sure I want to field them anymore.

-Pax

[Munkie]

I think my biggest complaint is that the dex just doesn't seem like that much of a departure from the last.  Look at all the stuff that changed from the Tau codex to the next, or the Eldar codex to the newest one, or the Daemon one.  Nids could have been radically different, but weren't.  They flat out didn't change several units which NEEDED to be changed, and made arbitrary point adjustments.  Are ripper swarms tearing up GW HQ?  Why did they go UP in points!??!! 

 

Ironically, this is actually my complaint against the Eldar Codex too. They changed quite a bit, but nothing that needed to be changed. Everything that was bad in the last codex is bad in this codex. Everything that was good in the last one is better in this one. A powerful codex, but a really half-assed change. But really, the only significantly changed books from start to finish are Tau and Demons. Everything else feels like a reboot of what it was.

 

I'm pretty sure the pods is a result of the chapter house suit, as there was some debate if GW could produce it's own version of models that were made based on GW books. That's why GW's been keen to produce only codex entries with actual models for sale upon release. The pods were built by a few companies, so it was unclear if GW can make their own...

 

Could? Yes, GW could have made their own but, for some unknown reason, they never did. They realized that since they hadn't released a model for a pretty important unit they created about 4 years ago, probably everyone already found their own way to take care of it. Some people built their own, some people bought from other parties--like Chapterhouse Studios. Basically, GW would have to edge their way into a niche market they themselves created with their own short-sightedness; or, they could undermine the sales of a competitor who throat-punched them in court a while back. So... they went with the second option.

 

But really, we shouldn't be that surprised. In the past 4 years or so, they've really stepped it up when it comes to making sure they've got the models to support the codex. It used to be that you had to scratch build good chunks of your army because they simply didn't make models for them, and that doesn't really happen anymore. So in keeping with that policy, they had a choice to make that choice. And as petty as it was, it was probably the right choice financially. Gamble on your own sales, or hamper your competitors? Not really a choice at all, unfortunately for nid players.

[fluger]

Ironically, this is actually my complaint against the Eldar Codex too. They changed quite a bit, but nothing that needed to be changed. Everything that was bad in the last codex is bad in this codex. Everything that was good in the last one is better in this one. 

 

I disagree.  The battle focus mechanic was new and drastically altered a lot of the value of certain units.  And the shuriken rules were perfect.  Guardians went from garbage to useful with a quick stat bump.  Swooping Hawks were awful and are now exceptional.  Shining Spears went from terribad to...pretty decent (especially with Autarch support).  Rangers dropped in points to become useful.  

 

I love the Eldar codex, I just wish they didn't have serpent shields that shoot and wraithknights the way they are and it would be a perfect codex.  

[fluger]

Change regen to FNP

 

Why not change catalyt to- FNP but if given to a unit with FNP it gains the current regen rule.

 

You could also create something where as biomatter is devoured the unit gains stat improvements based on their IB type. So similar to dark elves but based on model count (with bulky counting as 2, very bulky as 3)

 

Also spore launchers, where the unit forgoes shooting to cloud the air with spores stopping all overwatch from models within 6 inches of where they are as spores clog gun barrels.

 

I like that.  Regen to FnP, Catalyst just makes one unit have FnP.  Done.

 

The other stuff is just more cumbersome.  I'm looking for a simple "house rule" that would bring Nids back in line with everything else.  

[WestRider]

Pretty sure the gone to ground thing is new for the IB. Maybe it just switched from pinning to gone to ground, which is a bit different in function, as you can voluntarily go to ground when shot at.

 

I'd note that the Lurk thing does say both closest and in TLOS, and that's after moving, so you could control this one a bit by moving towards a target, or moving out of LOS of a target.

 

Anyway, for synapse, you can find a synapse unit in every slot of the normal FOC. The synapse models themselves don't test for it, so you could eliminate IB entirely from the list if you really wanted by just fielding all synapse models. Perhaps not the ideal solution, but that would be an option for sure.

 

I do think that the issue isn't that this codex sucks over the last one, it's that this codex sucks over the FAQ and BRB changes to the list. If they had released this at the start of 6th, you wouldn't be complaining.

-Pax

I've got the old Dex right here. Checked it before I posted. Units that were Gone to Ground didn't have to test.

 

Lurk: Still doesn't help when what you need to do is shoot past Screening Units, which is a pretty common scenario.

 

All Synapse: Creates an Army that is A)Terrible, and B)Horribly unfluffy.

 

FAQ: Nid Players are still angry about the FAQ we got. That FAQ did as much as the release of the DE and GK Dexes to wreck the Nid Army for 5th Ed.

 

And I said way back that this would have seemed like a decent Dex if it were one of the first out of the gate. Then it would have declined to its current state of suckitude once CSM, Eldar, and Tau dropped.

[Chapel]

Some of my biggest problems with the Codex, was that they didn't make units that got hosed by 6th edition rules playable. Genestealers and Lictors for example, these are two really fluffy and cool units, however because they have such a low armor save they just get shot to ribbons the instant that come on the table. They can't assault out of reserve/outflanking like 5th edition. Simple fix, give them a 1pt upgrade that allows that mechanic to work and they're worth their points. Otherwise they're really not much different than Hormagaunts, except 3-4 times as expensive. Make them 8pts a model and they're more in line with what they should be for a 5+ save.

 

Second, what were they thinking with the scything talons? Why remove an ability that made units like hormagaunts and carnifex useful? There's almost no reason to take scything talons on a carnifex now. Why would you? You only gain a +1 attack if you take two sets, so that means that you either can't take any biomorph guns, or you take ALL biomorph guns. The re-roll 1's to hit and re-roll all hits was a great rule and made perfect sense for the Nids. They took character away from the units, and I'm not sure why.

 

Rippers going up in cost....I have no words to explain my confusion.