Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I could see genestealers being 9pts without changes, I mean they fit same role as daemonettes, you gain + 1 in t and str, lack invul. Scything talons changed seems odd, now they are their to look cool. Giving them ap 6 is kind of a slap to the face. I disagree West I think synapse is fluffy and is a near rule. I just think there be a stronger balance between it's gain versus it's lost. fearless yatv good for horse but means jack for my mc. I think fnp 6+ would be sufficient. Also I think range on it needs to be + 6". Change like that would be enough for me to be happy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I disagree. The battle focus mechanic was new and drastically altered a lot of the value of certain units. And the shuriken rules were perfect. Guardians went from garbage to useful with a quick stat bump. Swooping Hawks were awful and are now exceptional. Shining Spears went from terribad to...pretty decent (especially with Autarch support). Rangers dropped in points to become useful. Don't get me wrong, nearly every unit in the book got some change or another, but a lot of them still operate the same way. Guardians are better, sure, but nobody really notices since DA are still the go-to due to their lower starting cost (wave serpent tax). I'm glad you like Hawks and I agree that they got better, but I still don't like them. They kill vehicles on turn 3 or later and kill guardsmen and other eldar pretty well. I need vehicles killed when I need them killed, not half way through the game at the earliest, and nobody ever needs to include guns to kill guardsmen because every other gun out there does it too. Admittedly, Spears got better but still need a lot of support to make them really do what they are supposed to. But everything that is bad in this book was also bad in the last one, usually for EXACTLY the same reasons. Scorps and Banshees are assault specialists with no reliable way to make it into assault, etc. They changed a lot in that book, but not what models people commonly take (aside from the new ones they released). It just feels like they put a lot of work into it for about 60% of the book and then said "f* it" for the last bit and didn't bother to fix most of the units that needed it. The tyranid codex feels much the same way, only worse. They removed or hamstrung the 4 best units in that book (Doom, Ymgarls, Pods, and Tervigons) and gave them almost nothing in return. And an army that occasionally, randomly, decides to lose you the game through no fault of your own, is just bad game design. Look at the Orks, they manage to be random and potentially detrimental, but not so detrimental that units destroy themselves! A nob might pistol whip a boy to keep them in line, and a Shokk Attack Gun sometimes teleports into CC with a blood thirster, but they are silly and small. A little more effort, and I feel like they could've captured the feel they were going for, whithout it all being sooo detrimental. For as necessary as synapse is, I feel like they should've made it 18" range in this book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 No idea on how to fix Nids...As for a fun game, anyone remember the old Tyranid assault mission? Regular game, every Nid unit killed returns next turn, if you don't get tabled in seven turns you win! Some of my favorite second edition games. Really captures the endless onslaught feel. Doesn't fix a weak codex but does allow for a fun game with a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacewolved Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 How to fix nid codex? Don't buy it so gw has a stockpile of them and models and they realize that sloppy writing won't work. But realistically, a faq allowing biomancey and a supplement allowing for allies regardless of what it is about is all we can expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romans832 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 And to make things worse, they've now released: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/dataslate-tyrannic-war-veterans/id794896450?mt=11 Wow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 And to make things worse, they've now released: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/dataslate-tyrannic-war-veterans/id794896450?mt=11 Wow Yeah! What makes it worse, Tyranic War Veterans have access to mycetic spores! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romans832 Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Yeah! What makes it worse, Tyranic War Veterans have access to mycetic spores! How do Marines get Spores? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 How do Marines get Spores? Probably didn't wash their socks;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AscentStudios Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 The fix to this codex is easy IMO, but not as singular as Fluger puts it. For the most part, a few changes to the general rules of the army to make their army-wide rule (IB and Synapse) not as punitive/"tax-y;" fixing some of the general laziness of the design (by fixing the units that were already crap to make them at least less crap - 'cept for Sky Slashers...I've got no ideas there); and looking at them in the context of available army lists (Daemons, I'm looking at you) would bring them up to par pretty damn quickly. Note I have not changed a lot of other things people are bitching about. Lash whips, for example, work much better IMO as +3I in the new assault system, as it doesn't completely undermine fast characters nor rely on counting BTB models or make assault even slower to resolve. I can also live with Hive Mind Powers and without Biomancy...as long as we have other options to replace them. My list: General Rules: * Tyranids gain access to Telepathy and Telekinesis BRB powers (Fluger's right that Biomancy is largely redundant, and these Disciplines represent a much more dangerous psychic presence hinted in older fluff) * Instinctive Behavior goes from a 1-3/4-5/6 to 1/2-5/6 split (making it risky to leave synapse, but greatly mitigating the negative effects of IB: Feed on the units that have it - which happen to also be the units that are most likely to outrun synapse...Raveners and Hormaguants being prime examples. IB: Feed is the single worst rulechange in the entire book). IB is still a thing this way, and still messes up your control of the unit (Feeders must assault, Lurkers must hide, Hunters must shoot) but is not outright damaging and cumbersome in list-building and play. * Synapse grants 6+ FNP (this one's iffy, but a small gimme would be great for encouraging people to take Synapse, and for keeping your Synapse Critters in the game) * New Rule - Mycetic Assault: Any unit containing 1 Monstrous Creature; up to 5 Very Bulky models; up to 10 Bulky models; or up to 20 infantry models can choose to Deep Strike for 50 points. These models begin play in Reserve and deploy per the Drop Pods rule (Boom, no models needed and still costs a premium over more Deep-Strikey armies). * New Rule - Ambush Assault: Unit can assault on the first turn of the game, and on the turn it arrives from Reserve or Deep Strikes Weapons Changes: * Scything Talons rule returns to reroll 1s in assault if you have any (no benefit for two pairs - that's replaced by the second set of CCWs rule in current dex. They can keep or lose AP 6 for all I care). Wow, they're no longer totally worthless on most critters that have them! * Crushing Claws give +2 STR and Armorbane * Spore weapons get cleaned up - they're a goddamn mess right now. HQ: * Hive Tyrant gains a new rule: Hive Mind Scion: Gains +/-1 to all Reserves roll. Can gain 2+ save for 35 points, exclusive of Wings. * Tervigon becomes Monstrous Creature (Character); Brood Progenitor tests are made against the Tervigon's Ld; Synaptic Backlash has a distance of 2d6" rather than 12". * Tyranid Prime cost reduced back to 100 pts. * Deathleaper gains Ambush Assault rule Troops: * Tyranid Warriors can gain Bonded Exoskeleton for +5 points/model. * Genestealers reduced to 12 points each and gain Ambush Assault. Scything talons reduced in points to 2 pts/model. Can take Flesh Hooks at 2 pts/model. Upgrade to Ymgarl stealers (gain Ymgarl Factor rule, per the bio artifact) for +4 points each * Hormagaunt Toxin Sacs reduced to 2 pts each Elites: * Doom of Malantai: Returned, but costs 150 pts and cannot trade out its power. * Hive Guard BS returned to 4, and WS lowered to 3 * Venomthropes gain Fleet * Lictors gain Ambush Assault rule * Pyrovores gain Torrent (Probably have to increase their cost by +10 pts); can take Toxin at 3 pts and Adrenal at 5 pts (as Hive Guard) Fast: * Harpy and Crones may reroll failed Grounding Tests Yeah, I think that's it. For Supplements, I would add Genestealer Cult as a supplement codex. Allying with yourself is some silly sh!t. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Bigglesworth Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Yeah! What makes it worse, Tyranic War Veterans have access to mycetic spores! Not buying this, please tell me this is a joke, or just a reference to drop pods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aventine Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 MikhailLenin went 3-0 on the 1st day of TSHFT w/ Tyranids... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 The General matters. I've said so many times. Lists don't win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Not buying this, please tell me this is a joke, or just a reference to drop pods? Yeah, sorry, I was just being inflammatory. I couldn't help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 MikhailLenin went 3-0 on the 1st day of TSHFT w/ Tyranids... I thought he was playing Star Wars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted January 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 General Rules: * Tyranids gain access to Telepathy and Telekinesis BRB powers (Fluger's right that Biomancy is largely redundant, and these Disciplines represent a much more dangerous psychic presence hinted in older fluff) Rather than this, they should've gone with what they did with Eldar and have two different psychic trees, one based on maledictions/debuffs and such that are offensive based and then one that is based on buffs and such. Take what we have now and just ramp it up a bit * Instinctive Behavior goes from a 1-3/4-5/6 to 1/2-5/6 split (making it risky to leave synapse, but greatly mitigating the negative effects of IB: Feed on the units that have it - which happen to also be the units that are most likely to outrun synapse...Raveners and Hormaguants being prime examples. IB: Feed is the single worst rulechange in the entire book). IB is still a thing this way, and still messes up your control of the unit (Feeders must assault, Lurkers must hide, Hunters must shoot) but is not outright damaging and cumbersome in list-building and play. I would simplify it to this: Lurkers: They go to ground if they fail IB Hunters: They cannot move or run and must shoot at closest enemy unit if they fail IB. Feeders: They cannot shoot or run and must assault the closest enemy unit if they fail IB. * Synapse grants 6+ FNP (this one's iffy, but a small gimme would be great for encouraging people to take Synapse, and for keeping your Synapse Critters in the game) I think if we make IB less of a thing, this isn't necessary, but I like it. * New Rule - Mycetic Assault: Any unit containing 1 Monstrous Creature; up to 5 Very Bulky models; up to 10 Bulky models; or up to 20 infantry models can choose to Deep Strike for 50 points. These models begin play in Reserve and deploy per the Drop Pods rule (Boom, no models needed and still costs a premium over more Deep-Strikey armies). Perfect. I also always thought that the mycetic spore should just dissapate after use, not continue to be there. This is a great rule. * New Rule - Ambush Assault: Unit can assault on the first turn of the game, and on the turn it arrives from Reserve or Deep Strikes I think this is unnecessary and I think it is clear that GW is not going to include this ever again. I would say do something different like on the turn a unit with this rule arrives from reserve, or the first turn if this unit infiltrated, the enemy may only fire snap shots at them. Keeps from turn 1 assaults or assaulting from reserve, but still means they aren't just hanging out waiting to die. Weapons Changes: * Scything Talons rule returns to reroll 1s in assault if you have any (no benefit for two pairs - that's replaced by the second set of CCWs rule in current dex. They can keep or lose AP 6 for all I care). Wow, they're no longer totally worthless on most critters that have them! I actually would go another way with this, scything talons gives the shred USR. * Crushing Claws give +2 STR and Armorbane I don't think this needs to change, just the points values for it currently. * Spore weapons get cleaned up - they're a goddamn mess right now. Yes, clean this up. HQ: * Hive Tyrant gains a new rule: Hive Mind Scion: Gains +/-1 to all Reserves roll. Can gain 2+ save for 35 points, exclusive of Wings. Not sure if we need to go back to this. I think the tyrant guard should just get another wound instead. The +1/-1 should just be an upgrade. * Tervigon becomes Monstrous Creature (Character); Brood Progenitor tests are made against the Tervigon's Ld; Synaptic Backlash has a distance of 2d6" rather than 12". Yes to all three. * Tyranid Prime cost reduced back to 100 pts. ORRR, give it another wound. * Deathleaper gains Ambush Assault rule Per what I wrote earlier, don't think it needs it. Troops: * Tyranid Warriors can gain Bonded Exoskeleton for +5 points/model. Doesn't really help with their main drawback, ID, but not a bad idea. * Genestealers reduced to 12 points each and gain Ambush Assault. Scything talons reduced in points to 2 pts/model. Can take Flesh Hooks at 2 pts/model. Upgrade to Ymgarl stealers (gain Ymgarl Factor rule, per the bio artifact) for +4 points each I don't think they need to be reduced in cost that drastically AND get the ability to assault turn one. Rather, I say keep them the same, no ambush assault (I think that should be a lictor thing), but give them +1 attack and then keep all the upgrades you just listed. * Hormagaunt Toxin Sacs reduced to 2 pts each I'm less worried about that than I am that I think that AG should go down in points because they already have fleet. Should be just 1 pt. Also, per my revision of scy tals, they have shred as well. I think that is nice. Elites: * Doom of Malantai: Returned, but costs 150 pts and cannot trade out its power. Yes, also make it HQ. * Hive Guard BS returned to 4, and WS lowered to 3 Nah, just lower the points on them. * Venomthropes gain Fleet Nah. * Lictors gain Ambush Assault rule Yes, as per my change. * Pyrovores gain Torrent (Probably have to increase their cost by +10 pts); can take Toxin at 3 pts and Adrenal at 5 pts (as Hive Guard) No reason to up points. Fast: * Harpy and Crones may reroll failed Grounding Tests I don't think this is necessary, honestly. I just think they should be a smidge cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Tyrant/Guard: Some people on The Tyranid Hive were tossing around the idea of the Tyrant still being limited to a 3+ Save, but the Guards having a 2+, to really reinforce their role as bodyguards. I think a number of Weapon Skills should go up to 4. Haruspex (Should probably have at least one more Attack, too, and maybe some tinkering with its special Rules), Carnifex, maybe even Hormies. WS3 was cool when they were getting Re-rolls because it represented that they were focusing on offense over defense. They could hit easily, but got hit easily in return. Without that, the way they struggle to hit Guardsmen is kind of pathetic. Move Through Cover for Gargoyles, and Toxin Sacs/Adrenal Glands for Raveners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbitron Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 Subterranean Assault (Trygon deep strike thingy) should allow you to nominate a single unit of Warriors/Genestealers/Raveners/Termagaunts/Hormagaunts/Rippers to be set aside. After the Trygon arrives, place that unit into ongoing reserves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 For warriors maybe have something where instan death weapons (except force weapons) only do double wounds? Or increase there toughness and keep their armor the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Been watching games in person, bugs don't seem very underpowered. Perhaps it's just because your comparing rough stones to cut gems? -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Having played both as and against the new 'Nids, I would have to disagree, pax. They don't really have solutions to most of the top lists in 40K right now, most especially Eldar, SM, and Daemons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Having played both as and against the new 'Nids, I would have to disagree, pax. They don't really have solutions to most of the top lists in 40K right now, most especially Eldar, SM, and Daemons. Sounds like your comparing rough stones to cut gems. You compare top tier lists to a brand new codex where no one has had it long enough to polish their army to even a shiny stone. Give it time. -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 WOW... I am late to the party. Yes, the Bugs are no longer top tier competitive, but I think are a solid mid tier army. I am not a fan of changing rules for house rules sake. But to try a game here or there with different rules I can do. My goal is to try out as many builds as I can at the 1500 pt level and then start increasing the points when I find a solid build at the lower level. Unfortunately with my upcoming schedule, I won't be getting in many games to test. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Sounds like your comparing rough stones to cut gems. You compare top tier lists to a brand new codex where no one has had it long enough to polish their army to even a shiny stone. Give it time. -Pax That's a pretty poor analogy. People knew from day one that Riptides, Missilesides, Wave Serpents, and Jetbikes would be powerful- of course, no one knew exactly how the lists would come together, but the potential was obviously there. I don't feel that's true for the Tyranid codex; there's a few interesting choices, but nothing that really jumps out as "Wow, that has potential" the way that many of the other books have. If anything, I'm comparing cut gems to dirt. You can grind and polish that dirt all you want, but it ain't never gonna be a diamond. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 21, 2014 Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 Stones! Gems! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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