MikhailLenin Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said: heh. Want to bet on that? Sorry what? 1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said: I think some one is being over-sensitive. I never directed any comments towards anyone. I never used the pejorative "you" in the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 heh. Point. However, I am sure that, given the memetic reply, that facetious comment was received appropriately. Can we go back to talking about the Glory Days of 5th? Seriously, if someone is going to try to points dump into a meta-banging midfield drop that someone HAS to have charge distance re-rolls across the board. Not 1 unit, not a specialized unit, but every model/unit in the drop. Welcome to 8th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Glory days of 5th. Got it. I loved killing blood angels in 5th. That was when AP denied FNP and Vindicators were the best weapon to take out Storm Ravens... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 Sounds like someone wasn't using VV's correctly. because.. Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Mushroom... Mushroom... Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, Melta, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 1, 2017 Report Share Posted December 1, 2017 oops.. i forgot a melta.. Melta Melta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 2, 2017 Report Share Posted December 2, 2017 Really, two posts of melta without an explanation at all as what you are referencing? This sort of thing makes you look like you are a jerk and trying to be one, even to me. In 5th, I didn't see too much melta from BA. The common list was BA Assault Terminators in a Storm Raven with a half dozen independent characters all in one unit. They'd zip up with the SR and disembark as one unit and a dread, then split apart and assault. FNP and Storm Shields on terminators. 5th was like this for BA, then identically for GK (Paladins replacing assault terminators). Their opponent would basically have 1 turn to shoot them at point blank, before they made assault. I ran a couple of vindicators and a full 10 man Combi-plasma sternguard squad in a drop pod. Back then, the vindicator's large blast basically couldn't miss a storm raven because they were skimmers, not flyers, in 5th, and their wings were FAQed to count at hull. Since AP 2 denied FNP and 2+ armor saves, rapid fire plasma was very practical. This really was the only viable way I found to stand a chance against BA and GK in 5th. I could realistically wipe out about half of the super unit and the storm raven(s) and the dread in one turn of shooting. Still didn't win much, but I had a lot of fun killing BA and GK in 5th. I think I was loyalist marines then, but I don't think I had any chapter then, since it didn't matter for rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 2, 2017 Report Share Posted December 2, 2017 I ran 6 squads assault troops with 2 melta's each (12 melta's), 3 squads of VV combat squaded (assault on deep strike) with 4 melta's each (12 meltas), 2 command squads with 4 melta's each (8 meltas), and a librarian with a melta. 33 meltas, all with jump packs. Single targets like dreadnaughts would just disappear. The assault on deep strike meant you could crack open transports with the melta's and then assault the disembarking models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 2, 2017 Report Share Posted December 2, 2017 Ah, you didn't get the joke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6CDFn2i3I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkie Posted December 2, 2017 Report Share Posted December 2, 2017 Deep striking land raiders were the dumbest part of 5th edition blood Angeles. A thunderhawk (that has taken a vow of pacifism, I guess) just drops the land raider off and leaves before anyone notices? So, so dumb. I hope that rule never comes back. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 That's right. I had forgotten about the deep striking land raiders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremmet Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 It's like Mat Ward saw the fluff blurb in the Space Wolves book about throwing Land Raiders into the ocean to fight Tau and went full "hold my beer." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 In both 6th and 7th they instituted rules that mitigated against the whole 5th edition BA blitz. Having to have at least half your units on the board compared to those in deep strike, and tabling. 8E has both those rules in place. When you add in the mandated 9" deep strike and the ability for every unit to fall back (except for the one assassin and GC), it means having a chapter/list/detachment dedicated to the shoot/assault deep strike blitz concept becomes extremely difficult and finicky. BA retains the ability to take 2 special weapons in the assault squads and the heavy flamers. Oh, and little things like giving a techmarine a jump pack (but no CB), sanguinary priests etc (and to be fair, the narthecium has some interesting capability's when carried by an HQ instead of an elite). It's possible that plasma gun assaults are marginally less finicky than melta gun assaults. However, having plasma pistols across full units of jump pack equipped squads that can re-roll charge distance is even less finicky. At that point there is a need to compare Death Company squads with Lemartes VS Black Templar Vanguard Vets for points cost (especially since the VV's can take stormshields). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 Kinda on topic. Hey peter, you were talking about a need to DS in melta pistol range. I figured it out. Drop Pods. Just land within 9", disembark 3" and move your normal movement. Drop Pods can hold jump infantry in this edition, so you could potentially gain 15" of movement from where you dropped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 the guys coming out of drop pods ALSO have to stay 9" away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 remember they have also brought back the 4E imperial gunline AND the 2E screening forces rule (insofar as HQ choices are screened from fire). This means we are back to the old school/pre drop-pod assault concepts of backfield/midfield. The non-finicky lists are always going to have something cheap/disposable in front of stuff that are important, and nobody is going to let anyone DS into the backfield if they can possibly avoid it. Gunlines are not going to be setup centered if they can shoot farther than 48", and it only takes 2 of the cheapests units anyone can bring to block first turn assault in the two back corners. And that's just for dawn of war deployment. All the other's are even easier to block first turn assault/melta of key combat platforms. In order to break the gunline deployment when using a deep strike points dump someone will have to break the cornerstone in first turn and then HOPE their opponent isn't smart enough to move a unit back into gap to stop the 2nd turn DS/Assault. Exactly the way things were in 4th. At least in 4th you could deep strike 2d6 inches instead of a hard 9", although there weren't any first turn assault units that I remember using in 4th. That's why 5th was so pro-BA. BA could deep strike 1d6 inches away AND assault on deep strike. AND Rhino's don't have fire points anymore. Using a transport for an ablative is limited to stuff like bunkers/bastions or some army list peculiarity. AND with every unit capable of falling back, players will end up relying on threat density and HOPE as the only ablative for the deep strike points dump, assuming the DS can get to key weapons platforms that will not be able to shoot next turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said: the guys coming out of drop pods ALSO have to stay 9" away. Huh. <Checking rules> Yea, you are totally correct. Missed that. Glad I've not tried it in a game. Though if BA get a psychic power like the CSM one, they could do it. CSM one is called Warptime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 They got one thing. The wings of something or other. There is a RUMOR that Death Company MAY get the ability to attack twice like Khorne Zerkers. IF.. that's the case then DC just got gud. DC with plasma pistols/even just chainswords with Lemartes AND the Red thirst for the +1 str makes them better than khorne zerkers.. mainly because of the 6+ FNP. It would depend on if the KZ's were in a WE detachment for the +1 attack on charge AND if you can absorb the cost for the rhino assault across the board. Lemartes and 6 squads DC with PP is a legit BA detachment, less good than a BT/VV detachment, but IF they get that second set of attacks.. that would put them WELL into A/A+ territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said: At least in 4th you could deep strike 2d6 inches instead of a hard 9", although there weren't any first turn assault units that I remember using in 4th. That's why 5th was so pro-BA. BA could deep strike 1d6 inches away AND assault on deep strike. AND Rhino's don't have fire points anymore. Using a transport for an ablative is limited to stuff like bunkers/bastions or some army list peculiarity. AND with every unit capable of falling back, players will end up relying on threat density and HOPE as the only ablative for the deep strike points dump, assuming the DS can get to key weapons platforms that will not be able to shoot next turn. You can still deep strike on the drop. Rhinos lack fire points, but can now be assaulted out of. Smoke launchers are the best they've been in several editions, in my opinion. I've found Rhinos to be realistically able to advance across the table and disembark their cargo. And while they are out in front, they protect your characters as well as the embarked unit. Regarding buildings, the rules are great for those, so no issue fielding them. If you haven't tried them, Buildings are awesome and an easy addition to any army. As for falling back, I like what they did with it. You can't hide in assault anymore, and that's a good fix. Though you can trap units if you have superior numbers/mobility - which again, is reasonable. And we got back the rule that allows the owning player to choose which models die, so you can keep your special weapons or powerfist if you want, rather than having to remove the closest model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SigurdBC Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 The power you guys are thinking of is "Wing of Sanguinius". The power is WC 6 and allows the psyker to move again as if it were the movement phase. The psyker's MV is changed to 12" and gains the Fly keyword. This is hilarious because of Librarian Dreadnoughts being able to move 12" and fly over enemy models. My information source is an online batrep on Tabletop Tactics where they got an early copy of the codex. The BA player uses that power on his first turn to enable his Libby Dread to assault a Maulerfiend further up the field and kill it. It was pretty epic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, SigurdBC said: The power you guys are thinking of is "Wing of Sanguinius". yeah. we got it. The problem is, the dreadnaught libby isn't as good as Bjorn teh Felhanded. If someone could take lascannons on the libby dreadnaught it would be better, but right now they are limited to just melee weapons and short range weapons hitting on BS3+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 1 hour ago, SigurdBC said: My information source is an online batrep on Tabletop Tactics where they got an early copy of the codex. Did they say anything about DC getting 2 attack phases like KZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, SigurdBC said: The power you guys are thinking of is "Wing of Sanguinius". The power is WC 6 and allows the psyker to move again as if it were the movement phase. The psyker's MV is changed to 12" and gains the Fly keyword. This is hilarious because of Librarian Dreadnoughts being able to move 12" and fly over enemy models. My information source is an online batrep on Tabletop Tactics where they got an early copy of the codex. The BA player uses that power on his first turn to enable his Libby Dread to assault a Maulerfiend further up the field and kill it. It was pretty epic. That maulerfiend is pretty terrible, especially defensively. Beating one in a single assault just means you can deal 12 wounds to a single model with only a 5+ save. Though giving yourself the fly rule is fun, as it means AA weapons now work on you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 23 minutes ago, paxmiles said: That maulerfiend is pretty terrible, especially defensively. Beating one in a single assault just means you can deal 12 wounds to a single model with only a 5+ save. Though giving yourself the fly rule is fun, as it means AA weapons now work on you.... and charge flyers in turn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter.cosgrove Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 I dunno. I've always considered BA to be all about threat density/HQ tax rather than relying on HQ's to do really game changing things. ATSKNF is probably the most important ability for BA right now in 8E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 3, 2017 Report Share Posted December 3, 2017 54 minutes ago, VonVilkee said: and charge flyers in turn... Well, more specifically, the option to charge flyers with the "Airborne" special rule. Flyers like the Helldrake, don't even have that rule to begin with, so can be charged normally by everything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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