New Faction Advice

[dataentity]

Mobile Brigadas are one of those units where, you are probably slightly overpaying for the stats that you get on top of the stats they get aren't put into places where they'll see much use. For example, that PH 14 is great, but you're probably paying a premium to get that high of a PH which, realistically, you probably aren't using too too often. Thus, your points are being spent somewhat inefficiently. In Corregidor they get better because you can stick them into a link, especially cheap links with Alguacils.

Krizas are one of the best heavy infantry in the game. But, yes, they can be challenging to fit in at 200 points. Not to say you can't. You can certainly make good lists, but you aren't taking all the bells and whistles you might want.

At standard 300 point games, it depends entirely on which heavy pieces you talk about. Some killer pieces are happy to go run off by themselves or close to it. Intruders, for example, can operate fairly independently and are terrifying. Of course, if you can spare the support, a jaguar with them or nearby is amazing. A Kriza, on the other hand, has to be wary of hackers and will actually be more vulnerable on the reactive in comparison to the Intruder because of the lack of a camouflage state and the added vulnerabilities of being heavy infantry. You'll want to include things like killer hackers to ward off or remove hackers who want to stop your Kriza indirectly. In comparison, that Taskmaster with Red Fury can be more independent because he brings a lot of protections for themself.

Yes, technically you will want Engineers, Doctors, etc. To be honest, I find myself rarely taking those kind of 'healing' units because of how many orders you might be spending to heal your pieces back up. That said, when your important piece is REALLY expensive like a TAG, then I try to fit in an engineer. For example, when I bring a Szalamandra, I am also going to include a Clockmaker.

I believe that those are the only boxes, not sure. Remember that the Tinbots aren't, in game terms, models. You can't shoot them or anything like that. You can just use a marker for them.

[Raindog]

A Mobile Brigada is a very average Heavy Infantry trooper, he has a purpose in the redesigned Corrigedor, but he is lacking compared to the SWAST and Kriza.

If you are asking for Tin Bots, they are really only a marker. You can use what you need.

[Sgt. Rock]

As others have said, Brigadas are so mediocre as to be below average, except in Corregidor. In Corregidor, though, they shine, and they do have a Tinbot option (I believe it's the one armed with a combi? I'd have to go look.) I tend to lean on a linked Brigada in Corregidor, though, as a bully piece. That and the Intruder. If you're going to play Corregidor, though, the Brigada is absolutely worth the investment.

[Mack]

As always thanks for all the good information. I've been enjoying learning the game and I appreciate the feedback and help.  Infinity is daunting to learn, but I like that it isn't the kind of game that is "solved" with the current meta army list. I've always liked games that I could tinker with army lists and adjust to forces to missions to suit my play style.  Nomads have been a fun faction to learn the game with since they have so many tools to accomplish missions objectives and have a variety of units. Without trying too hard I have four factions though because I'm a sucker for cool models.

For Nomads I've been playing mostly Corregidor units.  I just picked up the Zonds Remote box because I really like the variety of the REMs and having an 8 point useful unit option would be nice. It seems that I can always find a place for REMs in any Nomad list. For missions that are pushing buttons, grabbing data, etc I think I have it covered.  For missions that are going to require combat and out lasting an opponent I have a question. When I think of more combat focused missions I picked up several Mobile Brigada troops with the idea of using them in a fire team with Alguacil or just a pain train. When I actually tinker around with units lists I keep thinking I would be better off with a force of Wildcats.  Three Mobile Brigada or four Wildcats with some heavy weapons and maybe a Reaktion or Tsyklon REM for the same cost.  Or a full five man team with a cheap remote. The main complaint is that Wildcats are slow, but it seems that all of the mission objectives have been on the midline of a four foot table, and having a couple of extra orders always seems more useful. Has anyone built a list with Wildcats or have an opinion on them?

When I browse forums the general opinions range from a waste of points to they are okay in a Corregidor force but generally not used much. I read an interesting post from a top player in the UK talking about army lists after a tournament and he gave a more nuanced answer. He had just won a large tournament and was talking about playing Nomads again for the next big event because of all the headaches and fun he had playing against them.  He mentioned Wildcats as being the unexciting, solid unit that consistently wins games on objectives. His  hardest game came from forgetting how hard it was to push Corregidor Wildcats from an objective. So like most things on the internet 95% random people on the forums saying something is terrible and then a few comments saying that the other people need to play better.

 

[Natetehaggresar]

There is a lot of noise on the forum, and people who consider them selves bleeding edge competitive, don't like things because they are un-optimized and you waste points. Some players do well running only highly optimized units, but IMO it's a very limited view of the game, and as I believe you correctly point out, I don't think you can solve for infinity.

There are too many permutations of just tables/density and missions, let alone opponents.

Personally I value units that have options. All the light flame throwers on wildcats are wasted points, until you're holding an objective in tight quarters, then they become very powerful disincentive and to engage them... Wildcats have a little bit of legacy point costing, see the 2 swc hrl, but nothing debilitating.

It seems like you enjoy a nuanced view of the game and I appreciate that.

The brigada will move faster, and probably degrade slower with the extra wounds and arm. But you also lose out on the extra orders, which offsets the slower speed. 

I think what you might find more productive than comparing two sets of units to each other in vacuum, is to instead sit down and look at missions and think about what tools you for it. Then look at what tools your units can bring. For instance wildcats have shorter ranged weapons, d charges, and direct templates, and are non hackable, they are good at holding in a close assult/objective rooms scenario, whereas brigada have access to missile launchers and hmgs, which lend themselves more easily to fire support. (They can break down doors too, see the boarding shotgun, but they lack the mid range spitfire, and hacking vulnerability can be a drag up close).

Anyway food for thought.

[Sgt. Rock]

Nate's right. Never compare units in a vacuum. Consider the scenario and your objectives first and foremost. If you know something about the meta and/or the type of tables you're likely to see, that's your second consideration. Once you have those ideas in mind, you know what kind of units you need, and what you want them to do. Then you can start looking at what units your faction has that do those things. THEN you can start making comparisons and considering opportunity costs in list building. And you're right, Infinity is a game of nuance; there's no defined "win" list or auto includes that dominate the meta. I almost never take the same list twice, even just to weekly game night. I know players that have standard lists they always fall back on, but I enjoy tinkering way too much.

Also, another thing to consider if you find yourself leaning into sectorials: fireteams can be a trap. I've been doing a lot of thinking about them over the last year. They're very powerful, but they're expensive, and they concentrate a lot of your force into one spot on the board. @WiseKensai did a section of his Bromad Academy on running 3 man fireteams, and after giving it a try, I'm a believer. Unless I'm running a defensive Fusilier link or something, I find myself running a lot of 300 point lists that have a 3 man core and a haris link. Splits your board control up and still maintains good order efficiency. My current favorite Corregidor team is a Mobile Brigada HMG, Valerya Gromoz, and a Daktari. The Brigada is the main shooter, Valerya provides hacking protection for the Brigada as well as the ability to expand my repeater coverage with her pitcher, and it's just good to bring a doctor along, so the Daktari goes with. Both Valerya and the Daktari are specialists, so it's good for pushing buttons. Once Defiance comes out and I get my hot little hands on the new Nomad character in there, she'll probably replace Valerya, and I'm considering replacing the Daktari with Lupe, for smoke coverage. But it's a compact, punchy little package that gets stuff done. And with the points I save over a full 5 man team, I can afford to put a haris in there with Senor Massacre and some Jaguars or maybe some Wildcats. I don't get all of the fireteam bonuses, but it keeps me from over-committing my forces to one small section, It gives me more options for list construction and flexibility during the game, and it still maintains that order efficiency. 

A note about the Wildcats, since you're worried about them being slow: first, MI all have forward deployment L1 now. They start 4" farther up the board, so it takes less time for them to get up to where they need to be. Which is good, because a lot of MI like Bolts and Wildcats are more short to mid range brawlers than anything else. But Wildcats are a solid choice. I've not had the chance to experiment with them heavily (though I really want to, I just don't have the models yet) but I can see them as either a good link for mid field brawling and scoring objectives, or a solid defensive haris with the HRLs. They're great for objective room missions; the only profile that's *not* well kitted for close range combat is the spitfire. Even the HRL has an assault pistol, which in a link is terrifying inside 8". If I'm playing something like Engineering Deck or The Armory, a Wildcat link is going to be my number one choice, because they have more room clearing capabilities than any other link in Corregidor (save perhaps Jaguars/Massacre, because smoke grenades + intuitive attacks with chain rifles are a thing.)

Something else to keep in mind about the Brigadas, too: their mediocrity can be a strength. The fact that there's no real trick or nuance to them makes them *very* easy to use. With something like, say, a Kriza Borac or Taskmaster, you have to consider a lot more about what you're doing with them. Brigadas don't have a lot of special rules or abilities that bog them down, just point them at what you want dead and throw orders at them until it happens. Simplicity can be a strength. 

[Mack]

@Natetehaggresar and   @Sgt. Rock thanks for the helpful advice. Its always helpful and fun to have some help thinking through ideas.  When I start a new game I like ones that give me an  opportunity to discover the game and how it plays and then look up on forums etc for specific advice. I hate it when something is unplayable unless this unit is added or there are certain dominant troop lists for the current rule set. That and people have different play styles and temperaments so its hard to gauge how relevant their advice is in a vacuum. 

What got me thinking about more straight up combat options for Corregidor was that I played the Armory mission last week and was trying to get a list going for the Firefight mission this weekend. Most of the other missions that I've played so far I've felt pretty good with the units I had to bring to the table.  I have a bunch of good flexible specialists and units that are flexible in deployment. Its going to be awhile before I'm confident in the deployment stage, but units like Tomcats or forward deployed units close to mission objectives help make up for my mistakes. That and the units are fairly tough so I can actually push them to objectives. So for the most part I feel like I have the tools needed, I just need to learn to use them better.  

When I played the Armory mission I had a harder time deciding on what units to bring. It's the first mission that was more of a take and hold an objective, and the mission this week was Firefight a straight up brawl. Most of the units I've been using can fight, and the Intruder is tough on offense but I never get the feeling that I would like to set in one spot and trade shots with my opponents heavy units. I like the Mobile Brigada and it has pulled its weight in the majority of the games I've played. But when I think of games where I want more firepower in Corregidor  I wonder if the answer is to bring more Mobile Birgada because its my heavy infantry option.  Thats were I'm a little unsure of what is my best option, I have all the units for the sectorial except Wildcats so I can play around with various stuff.  Maybe a Gecko, Mccmurough, a Tsyklon REM?  In some of these missions Wildcats seem like a solid choice for me, but I'm not in a hurry to pick up another box just to try out a unit. Or is it more of a tactics issue and I need to figure out how to use my units better offensively?  (which is a given).  Do you think that for some missions its better to find a way to make a force work, or bring in a vanilla list or even another faction?

@Sgt. Rock thanks again for the advice on smaller fire teams. You mentioned it awhile back and again right now and for me its been really helpful. Deployment is always difficult so having really large fire teams I think is going to make it harder to recover from a mistake.  That, and maneuvering a team without having a straggler getting picked off is a lot easier with a small team. It still lets me compress some orders to move a few units together that I want to anyway. With the larger groups I agree that it would probably just give me more opportunities to get the majority of my force pinned down by a well placed mine or something. As far as the speed of Wildcats, I'm only really concerned with it that much, but it would force me to be more precise on deployment and have a clear plan on where I want them to go. Two things that I'm still working on. 

I do have one question for a more experienced player that I have a hard time judging. As I look more closely at units and how they work with other units I'm thinking of some of the asymmetrical attack options that Nomads have. Even though being out gunned in a direct fire fight but being able to attack my opponents order pool by isolating and immobilizing units. With Morans and cheap remotes it seems like I have decent hacking coverage without trying, if I wanted to use a hacker offensively can I use ones in Corregidor?  Or would it be wise to pick up someone like Mary Problems or an Interventor, but have to have a vanilla force? And if I want to use a Vanilla force to have some more flexible options, has anyone used Hecklers with Jammers or a E/Marat? I'm just getting comfortable with figuring out the effectiveness of more standard weapons so I'm still trying to figure out how likely it is for things like Comms and hacking attacks to be effective.

[Raindog]

Jammers are a great tool. They act like hacking devices in that you do not need line of sight to target the enemy. The isolate most troops and can even immobilize heavy infantry.

I like Bandit hackers, they can provide another set of tools to the table. They can be prone on roof tops, in a camo state and wait for heavy infantry or remotes to roll by.

[Natetehaggresar]

Hey @Mack

First your short question, hecklers of all types are good. Jammers are good too, most of the hate/annoyance you'll see online about Jammers comes from mutts in Haq, which are 5 point dudes with wip 15 and a jammer. You can lock down much more of the board with 4 Jammers then you can with 1. A single heckler with a jammer costs more than max mutts, they are a good tool to cause passive area denial, but unlike Haq, you can't just spam it. (Each Heckler profile fills a very different role because their gear is so different, read the Tunguska guide on the big board.)

 

Tools like hacking (and especially Moran) and Jammers are very powerful for passive denial. The hope is to cover a space with a jammer/repeater that your opponent needs to move through to engage you. Set up so that space is covered by a regular attack and a comms attack. If you do it right you either force your opponent to avoid an area or suffer a normal roll from at least one attack. Moran's are excellent at this because they are a walking area denial, with both a repeater and koalas who can only be resisted by different skills, dodge a koala, reset v hacking.

Corregidor can do hacking, but I'd noticeably weaker than the other nomad ships. I'd still rate them as a B overall, but they're not stand out. Repeater coverage is a double edges sword due to killer hackers, as a min I would field a bandit killer hacker + another hacker if you want to go that route. (Best defense being a good offense). Also remember hacking offensively only works against things that are hackable.

[Mack]

Thanks for the advice. With the holidays I haven't had much chance to play or tinker around with the game over the last week. I played in the Rampage games a couple of weeks ago and had a good time. It was interesting to play a variety of players and see different play styles and faction armies. I've tried to focus on learning the basics of the game and not get too distracted with online army lists, so it was interesting to see a how a more skilled player handled some units. I played a Corregidor force since thats what I've been using during the escalation league games and I didn't want to try to play multiple games with new units. I made the  mistakes in deployment that I was expecting and I wished multiple times that I could switch units. The issue I ran into that was a little more frustrating was knowing my opponents units, but not really understanding what they were capable of, or seeing their units and getting a feel for the kind of game they were planning on playing early on.

I was surprised with how resilient a force of Panoceania Varuna units could be, and that it was a given that there would be a Kamau with a multi spec visor in the force. I wasted a lot of time trying to move units in a better range since moving under smoke and camouflage wasn't as effective. The next game I underestimated how fast and effective a linked team of Hollow Men and a group of Puppetbots could be. I lost that game in deployment and couldn't even get anything going. The only breathing room I had was because I brought a Reaction Zond that happened to have a good field of fire. The personal frustration comes from seeing models that I know (and some I own) but haven't really played against or with and really missing what the force is about.  I know the answer is play more, but that is my question.

In the beginning is it better to just stay with one faction or play some others to get a feel for them and see if I enjoy the units play style? I enjoy relaxing, building and painting models, one of the aspects of the Infinity that I really enjoy.  I have a good selection of Combined Army, Ariadna, and a vanilla Panoceania units. Its nice to have some other forces to paint and tinker around with, but I only have limited time to actually play.  After a couple of months of playing I'm just now starting to get kind of a feel of just the Corregidor Sectorial. Even then thats just kind of a general idea of what some of the units can and can't do. I rarely feel like I'm getting my units to really work together. I still have a big back log of modeling projects so its not a pressing issue, but I wanted to hear what more experienced players thought about playing multiple factions while still getting a feel for the game.

On a Nomad faction question, I finally got to use some more of my REMs during the Rampage games. I was impressed with how well a Reaction Zond with assisted fire could control an area of the board; if I could find a good position for it (and remember that its kind of a glass cannon). Has anyone ever used a Tsyklon Zond much? In the 200 point games there never seemed to be enough points to use one, but I was thinking about replacing one of my Mobile Brigada with one in a fire team. So that would be with a core fire team or a duo team with a Gecko. Maybe to see how it would work on a more aggressive mission.

[Raindog]

Play with what you have for a few more months. When you have painted your Nomad lot, switch to Combined or what ever strike your fancy. Play something else. Learn another faction and see what you can do with a different flavor of the game. 

[Natetehaggresar]

You're correct, playing more in the answer.

I don't think switching factions really helps.

Infinity at its CORE has a very robust set of general rules shared by nearly all factions. The number of restricted unique rules is so low that I probably could count it on my hands and feed. (White noise, triads (but really they're just links), ecplise, symbiot mates/symbiot armor etc.)

A Zero is very much similar to a Naga, Guilang, Hunzakut, foxtrot, shrouded etc. Each is basically the same thing with a twist.

Similarly basic HI have analogs, as do LI etc. What really defines the factions are combinations of shared skill sets. I.E. TO camo + a Missle Launcher is terrifying, and that combination is limited to Pano, Yu Jing, and CA. 

You also understand the threat that a HI link poses, and you understand super jump, but you just haven't seen those qualities combined into a single package until you faced a hollowman link.

The challenge you're facing is learning to identify the potential of all these shared abiliites when combined into unique packages. A part of it can be learned through your own imagination, and a part is learned through play experience when you see someone else get creative with their usage of a set of skills. Thats really the beauty of infinity's rule set, finding creative solutions to problems posed on the table. 

You can switch if you want, but I think it will cause you some initial head ache re-learning a new tools set, while also trying to learn your opponents tool set. It sounds like you had identified mistakes you made during your games, so I think you're making progress. When you play, you might want to just be super upfront about things and ask your opponent about why/what they plan to do. When you're learning I don't think anyone at ordo would fault you for playing the game in that manner. It might help you get some insight about what twists they have in their rule sets.

As for the Tysklon, they're a decent tool, there are some pros for including them in a brigada link;

1. They;re cheaper so drive down the link price

2. They carry a repeater, so you can leverage other hackers to perform some limited area denial for vectors to attach your link.

3. Spitfires are a good mid range weapon, and the brigada profiles only have closer range weapons or longer range ones, it can be a good bridge.

4. Climbing plus can open up different attack vectors

5. Pitchers are also useful tools for making use of hacking tools sets

6. The 360 visor is good for watching your back (but not as good as total reaction, also note suppressive fire is good, but automatically breaks the link)

They also carry some negatives

1. They;re a lot more fragile with only 1 wound and lighter armor

2. Their BS is lower, which can be mitigated by support ware

3. They carry repeater, which can also be used by enemy hackers to kill your own hackers if you're not careful

4. The large sillouhette can also restrict your mobility and limit where you link can move, it can also be hard to hide out of LoF.

Note that the repeater is both a boon and a restriction. Like most things in this game, how you use it really dictates whether it is a good thing or a bad thing.

Good luck!