hand holding or natural consequences?

[Brother Glacius]

I am running a 5E Eberron game. Most of my players are not too familiar with the setting. That being said, they are all adults and have access to materials to learn about it. The group had gotten a new player and and so the next adventure was linked to them in order to get them integrated with the group. They were off to Xendrik to find an item and smuggle it back to Sharn. The caveat was that there was to be no record of the item anywhere, no paper trail at all, ie, an actual smuggled item. So the first part of the adventure was pretty standard, they went off into the jungle with a rough map/idea of where to search, and then try to find the object. That part went smoothly. Then as they were coming back into Stormreach, the captain of the ship they had chartered told them about customs...that any artifacts brought into stormreach had to be registered and potentially quarantined before able to leave Stormreach. The timeline for the campaign is typical, a few years after the Mourning, a strange magical explosion that wiped out a country and no one knows how it happened. So after that, transporting ancient magical artifacts got a little harder.

So basically, the second half of the adventure was the PC's figuring out how to smuggle this item back to Sharn.  They are only 5th level, and don't have much in the way of magic items, and specifically don't have a bag of holding. The item in question is not really concealable and needs to be in a chest or some other larger container. They were also under a time constraint to bring the item back as well as not having much in the way of money. They had enough to buy passage back, but it would be on a slow ship and cutting it close. But doable. The big thing though was that they had to get the item off of the ship they were on into stormreach without being identified or recorded, and then get it on a new ship going to Sharn undetected.

The character who's mission this was was an actual rogue, inquisitor archtype. They were trying to join a crime family and this was a test of their skills. The object itself really wasn't important. Of course the PCs don't know that. The first problem is that the player wasn't forthcoming at all to the rest of the party. They were completely surprised that they had to smuggle this thing back, but also that there was no planned passage either. So they now had to find a way back to Sharn and hide this item. I really thought the group would figure something out. But it has been the most horrible comedy of errors.

I help them out by letting the captain of the chartered ship tell them that he will get the item past the first inspectors and put on the dock for a small fee. First hurdle jumped. He tells them to come back that night, and it will be waiting for them on the dock. So I fully expect this stealth mission to take place. Instead, their plan is to simply walk up to the docks and take the item. So the whole time, I'm asking them, "do you scout out the harbor? are you trying to be unseen at all..." and constantly told no..they intend to just talk their way past any obstacle. So I describe the scene. It is an hour past midnight. They don't see any activity on the docks at all. There are no crew or passengers around, only guardsmen patrolling the area. So basically, its late, and if they go strolling up there, it will be very noticeable and out of place.

They plow ahead. Two of them do stay hidden in an alley near the dock, while the other three stroll out to the specific dock where the ship is (with two zombies in tow carrying a chest). Now I describe the docks as such when they get close, "you don't see any guards on the dock where the ship is birthed, but you do see guards on nearby docks. The docks are lit, but near the ship it is dark as it looks like boxes and crates were stacked to block some of the lanterns." Basically, the captain of the ship made it easy for someone to sneak out and get the object. The party just strolls out and starts looking for it. So then I have to tell them, that as they do so, the guards on the other docks notice them and start to head towards them. As they get near the ship, they see a small barrel large enough to contain the object and there is a small white X marked on the side. Before they can grab it though, two guardsmen come down the dock behind them and confront them.

Here is where the wheels really fall off. The paladin (right?) starts making persuasion rolls and does really well, putting the guards at ease. They tell them that they are supposed to board this ship but so far no one seems to be responding to their calls. The guards inform them that passengers don't embark this late and that the docks are off limits. They ask for their names and one raises a lantern to get a better look, and notices the zombies. Taken aback at seeing them, the paladin then rolls a nat 20 on persuasion. However, the group does not make any move to leave. One of the guys back in the alley runs out trying to add to the deception, but makes a bad roll. So the guards are getting a little suspicious though now and wary as yet another person is there that shouldn't be. The paladin's persuasion rolls though has kept them from sounding an alarm. Finally the guards tell them to come off the docks one last time and the group finally makes a move to do so, but tries to have one of the zombies pick up the barrel. Well because they made no effort to hide their approach to the ship, I had the guard roll to see if he noticed them bringing a barrel or not (the two zombies were carrying the chest). I rolled a 19 so the guard picks up that something isn't right. He then tells the group that they need to go to the guard house and explain all of this. Also, at some point the guards had asked to see their travel papers which of course they didn't have.

A this point the party attacks the guards and kills them both. Half of the group was trying to do non-lethal, but others didn't care and so they ended up dying. The group then grabs the barrel and bolts away from the harbor as sounds of more guardsmen are heard coming their way.

These are all experienced gamers....most of them have 30+ years of gaming under their belts. As a DM, I don't want to run their characters. But at no point did they ever consider other options. The wizard in the party had the invisibility spell and even cast it on himself in the alley, but never told the rest of the group that he could do that. The rogue who's mission it was never said a word to the guards. Not only that, but the rogue is a changling, and even has a smuggler background. But at no point did the character try to use any of that (and the rest of the party does not know he is a changling). After that session, I literally had to ask them if they wanted to start over or not. 

I don't mind helping out sometimes, but when it comes to their own characters, I expect them to know what they can do. So the adventure is completely off the rails, but I'm letting them direct where it goes from here. There are some great roleplay moments, but I also know some of the players are frustrated that they aren't doing more typical D&D stuff like being able to kill without moral considerations and taking whatever they want. :eyeroll 

So the next session I brought in the lovely twist of the guards approaching them to hire their priest to cast speak with dead on the guardsmen to help them find the killers. That has sent them into a new level of panic and they are now going to try to stealth into the guard house and mutilate the bodies so that speak with dead doesn't work. 

In my head, I saw this as a challenge for the smuggling, but not this [big bad swear word] show. They have a dragonmarked character in the group, two characters associated with religious organizations, and an actual smuggler. So lots of avenues to find aid or figure out how to do what they needed to do. At no point did they ever ask me for any info. 

So that is the question I'm struggling with, should I have done more to guide them to a solution? These are all adults, 50+ years old, experienced gamers. I don't think I should hold their hands. But clearly maybe I do?

[Ish]

No plan survives contact with the Player Characters.

I think you did a pretty good job, dropping enough hints at how they should do things and improvising some pretty clever twists when they ignored you.

[Torg]

some questions off the top of my head ...

1) Did you have a session zero? - discussing the setting, player / party expectations and a general idea of what the game was too be about?

2) How far is this into this particular campaign or group play? IE... did they start at 5th level or has this been an ongoing game - allowing the players to slowly find their way into their characters and the setting.

3) Is the group typically "murder hobos"? At 50+... they probably won't change if that is the case.

4) So far I don't see the need for you to change your tact - if they are not thinking of fancy ways through your idea of the campaign story- all the better - they now have to deal with the guards - and the rest - if you need to let some of them get incarcerated or worse - so be it. Suddenly, your game is about prison live - or exiled living out on some gulag - all new ways for their heroes journeys to take.

--- I had something similar happen in my Star Wars campaign a couple years ago - and as the GM I got to create all new paths and enemies. The players were supposed to infiltrate a prison planet - to get some info - to do so they had to figure a way in and out.  They decided to be a transport for a shuttle of prisoners (gang members and others) ... and in doing so one of the players decided to threaten the prisoners to act like they wanted to allow them to sneak into the prison. Anyhow, the player didn't like it when the hardened prisoners told them no (bad die rolls) and ended up executing one of the prisoners (they were hand cuffed and prepared for transport).  

The outcome of this action really irritated me for weeks - the party member murdered a defenseless prisoner - so I added a whole side story about this prisoners brother - whom they meet in the prison - whom is also a gang leader - that starts asking questions about the dead prisoners who were supposed to arrive on the transport.

Along with the regular mission - the party now had to deal with irritated and questioning prison gangs - The party member has ended up with a bounty on his head that he is still dodging from time to time.  - He has been beaten up (in the prison) and almost died a few times - the rest of the party has saved him - but consequences drive story.

Anyhow, I would be careful of your own expectations for what the party is doing to ruin your plans ... change your plans - remember they are helping - it is a cooperative story telling game. If they kill guards - they pay the consequences and have to struggle with the outcomes.

-d

[Brother Glacius]

The players started at 1st and there was a great deal of effort to make the party cohesive. The new player joined at level 4. He plays in other campaigns though that are in our rotation. Unfortunately he is very much a murder hobo player and not a roleplayer which is why I didn't invite him in the beginning, but circumstances dictated that he join the group. The campaign has been from the start, a very Eberron style campaign, intrigue, powerful factions, cinematic style encounters, a world of grey instead of black and white.

And yes, it is a co-op story. That is my whole point. I didn't have a plan other than, "they find a way back to sharn with the object". Lots of room for creativity on their side, but no one has stepped up and so far they are doing sort of simple/dumb actions and expecting success. And then they get upset when it doesn't work. Or god forbid, the guards asked to see their travel papers. 🙂

it has been a stressful campaign so far.

[Torg]

UGH - The game should not be stressful.  I stopped GMing and playing with the group for a year after that Star Wars campaign - because the group was butt-hurt that things suddenly got harder when they murdered bound and defenseless prisoners lol. 

Did the party "involvement with the story" change when the new player (the muder hobo) joined? Maybe have an aside with the whole group about your concerns - not in a game session. Maybe the group needs to have a discussion about what they are expecting from the campaign. Unfortunate as it is... it sounds like things have broke down a bit with your groups social contract - you as a GM seem to be on a different page as the party is now. Just to make things less stressful - things need to be ironed out - things rarely just get better on their own.

I have run into this in D&D as well as in Star Wars... now we are playing Aliens - and I have made it clear that they WILL DIE lol. As soon as Twilight 2000 is out ... it will be the same deadly-ness lol. 

BUT - I would allow this group to stumble - and don't allow them success if they don't put in the effort... and let players die if that is what happens. Although - that could make things worse lol. Maybe it is time for a new setting? Are they bored?

-d

[Brother Glacius]

our group rotates through campaigns. Right now, four of us DM and each person goes for about two months and then we switch off. That way a game has several sessions of continuity before switching and DMs get a nice long break between running. The big problem is that the players have been running on auto-pilot in terms of play. They just do small RP, and then wait for the combat and then worry about the tactical situations. I've tried in my game to move away from that so that they see that the characters have an impact. What you decide and how to execute are very important. So I think part of it that some are just being lazy and it brings down the whole session. The RP guys then get trapped by not making suggestions when they think their characters wouldn't do that. In this last instance, they kept saying, "well its Neev's mission, so she should decide what we do..." and Neev's player just wanted to roll dice and kill stuff.

I don't mind helping people remember stuff from past sessions. But I do expect people to know their own characters. It was very frustrating to see so many options in front of them that were completely ignored. And then when discussions are had, players hanging on to secrecy for whatever unknown reason. The guy playing the wizard still hasn't told the party that he can cast invisibility, even though there is a huge discussion about stealth and does he have any magic that will help. F my life 🙂 lol

 

[Torg]

hmmm we do the same thing - rotate GMs and game systems. As a GM I really want change - so I am always getting the group to try different game settings lol.

When is your next break?  lol... if they want to murder hobo ... your will have a hard time breaking that habit. Although you could suggest they go play WoW or something that may fit their tastes better lol. <- I have made that suggestion in my group a few times when things get this way - I explain I am not running a simulation of a online game - etc...  it never goes over well lol.

-d

 

[Raindog]

Bro G,

You are throwing softballs to the group and players are choosing to use badminton racquets to hit the balls. You are giving them many chances and they are choosing to be small rp and use violence to solve issues instead of other aspects of the game. Let them fall. Desperation on their part may cause inspiration (but likely more violence). Maybe they need to embrace the criminal culture of their deeds, be approached, reproached, recruited, and hunted for their actions?

[Torg]

3 minutes ago, Raindog said:

Bro G,

You are throwing softballs to the group and players are choosing to use badminton racquets to hit the balls. You are giving them many chances and they are choosing to be small rp and use violence to solve issues instead of other aspects of the game. Let them fall. Desperation on their part may cause inspiration (but likely more violence). Maybe they need to embrace the criminal culture of their deeds, be approached, reproached, recruited, and hunted for their actions?

exactly!

[Torg]

this whole topic got me thinking - when I was young ... younger ... we had a D&D Club in high school (before it was shut down by the school board in 1985) - and we had 2-3 tabes going every week after school.  We died LOTS... I mean LOTS lol. And no one felt bad... or defeated or stressed. We made new characters and went back down to the low level table lol.

My friends came over to my house and we played RPGs all night on weekends - and lots of characters died along the way... What happened? Did the instant gratification of MMORPGs and video games just kill the struggle it was to get a character past 10th level?  lol.  sure this is a subject for another thread - sorry for side quest lol.

-d

[Inquisitor66]

16 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

our group rotates through campaigns. Right now, four of us DM and each person goes for about two months and then we switch off. That way a game has several sessions of continuity before switching and DMs get a nice long break between running. The big problem is that the players have been running on auto-pilot in terms of play. They just do small RP, and then wait for the combat and then worry about the tactical situations. I've tried in my game to move away from that so that they see that the characters have an impact. What you decide and how to execute are very important. So I think part of it that some are just being lazy and it brings down the whole session. The RP guys then get trapped by not making suggestions when they think their characters wouldn't do that. In this last instance, they kept saying, "well its Neev's mission, so she should decide what we do..." and Neev's player just wanted to roll dice and kill stuff.

I don't mind helping people remember stuff from past sessions. But I do expect people to know their own characters. It was very frustrating to see so many options in front of them that were completely ignored. And then when discussions are had, players hanging on to secrecy for whatever unknown reason. The guy playing the wizard still hasn't told the party that he can cast invisibility, even though there is a huge discussion about stealth and does he have any magic that will help. F my life 🙂 lol

 

Have you talked with the players about these concerns yet?

[Torg]

An old but very enjoyable read on this topic - 

https://theangrygm.com/death-sucks/

long-ish meandering read - but I found some very relevant content and plan to add them to my tool box in the future actually.

-d