Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 So I’ve seen several battle reports where Spears have caused a rules confusion. Let me explain. Spears have the Fighting In Extra Rank Universal Special rule but Stepping Forward says those models that step forward can’t fight in the turn. But here’s where it gets fuzzy, Universal Rules are supposed to override standard rules but many players are saying even though spears have the Universal Special rule it still doesn’t override the Stepping Forward rule even though there is no examples explained nor is it made clear anywhere. So what does the community think? Anyone have a chance to read the core rules yet? I’ve gone over it several times and I still think the Universal Special rule overrides the Stepping Forward rule just like Army Special Rules overrides Universal Special rules, and so forth. But the confusion still remains. Thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Israel Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Now I have read this in the rule book. I am unsure. Ugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Israel Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Having read this if front rank if models have to step up they don't fight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Israel Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Fighting in extra ranks give you supporting attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 23 Author Report Share Posted January 23 I hear what you’re saying but I’m finding the Fighting In The Extra Rank rule lackluster when I think about my goblins. The only reason I can think to bring spears is for the bonus to initiative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 I think the intent has always been that casualties cannot fight. That is why init is so important. If I can kill 4 guys in your unit, that is four models that won't attack that round. I don't really think spears change this. If you have a unit of spears, 5 wide, that gets charged, you effectively have 10 models that can fight back. If four die, you'll have 6 models that can fight. Why, because out of those 10 that could fight, four had to step forward. Now if people are claiming that 8 models are stepping forward to fill in, and thus don't get to fight, I won't agree with that. There is nothing printed that I have seen that states that stepping foward is multiplied by ranks. Again, my opinion on it, and that is how I will play it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Also, if you want to get really technical about it, then that first screenshot proves it. It says "models stepping forward into the fighting rank..." There is only one fighting rank, the front rank. So only those stepping forward into the fighting rank cannot attack. Models stepping forward into a non-fighting rank can still make support attacks. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 23 Author Report Share Posted January 23 Another good point. I wish the FAQ had this in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Israel Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 The real problem is having to look at 4 different spots in the rule book. I am sure I missed something. I think the intent is for them to fight even if front rank is wiped. The support rank rule make it weirdly unclear. It's annoy how the book is setup. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 While I agree with Matt here, how is this new? GW has *never* managed to write clean rules and at least now with PDFs at least some of those 4 locations are hyperlinked together so they are easier to find... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 Based on the wording, I think the trickier question is what happens if the first 10 guys are wiped out (assuming ranks of 5). Strictly by the rules, only the models that move to the fighting rank (ie 1st) can't attack. But the models that move up to the second rank would still be able to attack due to the supporting rule. That would make spears well worth the investment. Clearly something that needs to be FAQ'd. As it stands now, I'd have to go with the strict wording and only deny attacks from models that move to the front rank if they have supporting rank rule. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 23 Report Share Posted January 23 I feel 25 years younger talking about warhammer rules once again. 🙂 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Israel Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 When you guys get your rule books, look up break test pg 154. Then think about how its telling you to work it out, once you think you got your brain around it go to page 349 it explains it again. And the wording is not the same. There are 2 rule sections in this book. First is a quick run though of the rule, the second is more in depth. It is annoying! hahaha Still spears are still giving me migraine. Note: the stuff on 350ish is the reference sheet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 24 Author Report Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, Matt Israel said: When you guys get your rule books, look up break test pg 154. Then think about how its telling you to work it out, once you think you got your brain around it go to page 349 it explains it again. And the wording is not the same. There are 2 rule sections in this book. First is a quick run though of the rule, the second is more in depth. It is annoying! hahaha Still spears are still giving me migraine. Note: the stuff on 350ish is the reference sheet. Well I asked some guys who have a connection with some GW guys about this and they responded back and said they will be having a discussion video about stepping forward soon. But yeah, new rule book, lots of questions. Kind of use to it to be honest. Never played a game where this hasn’t been true yet. Though Star Wars Legion was very nice with its small rules set. The cards are another story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 I've been wondering about this a lot as well. Most of my goblins have spears. And I assume anytime my goblins are charged, most if not all of the fighting rank will be dead. If not the second rank! So is there any reason to have spears? I don't really understand how important the initiative deal is yet, so maybe that's where they shine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 Does anyone know if there is the hand weapon + shield bonus armor save like there was before? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nellie Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 4 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said: Does anyone know if there is the hand weapon + shield bonus armor save like there was before? It does not, nor do you get +1 to your armor class by being on a horse. Generally expect many units to have slightly poorer armor than in previous editions of whfb. On the bright side, high strength values no longer decrease armor. So you'll no longer be losing a point off of all of your armor saves just because you're fighting a block of str 4 models. Only weapons that explicitly have an armor penetration value, (or the armourbane quality on a natural 6) will reduce your armor save. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 Gah, not having my rulebook is starting to chafe. Thanks for the info. RAW, spears are awesome right now, especially for poor troops like goblins, skaven and skeletons. I really hope GW doesn't change that with an FAQ. It would make spears really worth the 1pt you are typically paying for them, plus it would give armies with poor troops some dice to roll in combat other than break tests and flee rolls. Even it if does get FAQ'd and changed, I'll see about keeping it as a house rule for friendly games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andozane Posted January 24 Report Share Posted January 24 1 hour ago, Nellie said: It does not, nor do you get +1 to your armor class by being on a horse. To be clear, if you are on a barded mount, you do get +1 to your armor still. Pg 221 Core Rulebook A model that rides a barded mount improves its armour value by 1. For example, a cavalry model equipped with heavy armour has an armour value of 5+. Should that model’s mount be barded, its armour value would be improved by 1 by lowering the target number from 5+ to 4+. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nellie Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 Ok, I believe we have an answer to this on page 150. Supporting attacks start being lost if a unit takes a greater number of casualties than the number of models in the front rank. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 25 Report Share Posted January 25 Okay, so basically like I had originally stated, if you have ranks of 5 and spears, you could expect 10 attacks if charged, minus the amount of casualties you suffer. Kind of a shame though. It was more interesting to me to have supporting attacks always be able to attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 25 Author Report Share Posted January 25 15 hours ago, Nellie said: Ok, I believe we have an answer to this on page 150. Supporting attacks start being lost if a unit takes a greater number of casualties than the number of models in the front rank. That’s it!!! Thank you. So Supporting attacks can still be made even if they are behind a casualty. Stepping Forward doesn’t happen until after the attacks essentially. So it’s like the guys die in the front and the second rank attacks before stepping forward over their fallen comrades. Good find! Wish this was more clear in the other places. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckman Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 18 hours ago, Murphy'sLawyer said: Good find! Wish this was more clear in the other places. Whiner. (LOL, 😉 ) These rules are already more complete than we ever got back in the old Fantasy universe... It's in the rulebook... On the first printing... Such an improvement. I mean, that's like modern software being feature complete at release... Unheard of, amiright? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 26 Author Report Share Posted January 26 3 minutes ago, Duckman said: Whiner. (LOL, 😉 ) These rules are already more complete than we ever got back in the old Fantasy universe... It's in the rulebook... On the first printing... Such an improvement. Agreed. This is the most clear Warhammer has been, I’m just saying I wish these small details were more clear from first reading. Nitpicking? Sure, but I’m not the first to ask and there have been differing views on it and it’s good to get it cleared up early. But fine, I’m being a picky orc boy. I just want to know if my Night Gobbos should be using their pointy sticks on you when we meet in battle! 🧐 🧌 Happy Gaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Glacius Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 Yes, spears should be bought as well as wide frontages. I was reading the rules last night, and if I read them correctly, ALL models in the fighting rank get to attack. So if you have a 10 wide frontage, and a 5 wide unit hits you, you get all 10 guys up front fighting. Now, here's the best part. Models that have supporting attack just have to be behind a model in the fighting rank. They don't have to be behind a model in base contact with the enemy. So that means with a spear unit, you get 20 guys who are able to fight. I think I can see cheap infantry going that route a lot. Go 30 troops, 8-10 models wide, spears. Tough nut to crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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