pretre Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Nothing is friendly in these forums. This has been proven many times.I rarely hold things people say on the internet against themZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I rarely hold things people say on the internet against themZ I think you are interneting wrong... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I rarely hold things people say on the internet against themZ Yeah, my statement was purely for amusement. I enjoy your spoilers....it spreads chaos! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 So, something that I was kicking around the other day was why Warhammer players don't tell Games Workshop what they want... Now we all know that over the last decade or so GW has become reclusive and does not talk to the outside world. This started a long while ago when the closed down their forums (probably before that) and has continued as they shut down various rumor sources and "IP infringers" (aka fan sites). Honestly the details are a bit fuzzy now but over the years they have gone deeper into this self imposed seclusion from their own fan base. Of course their games were strong enough and their models were cool enough and their fluff inspiring enough that people kept on playing and buying. Unfortunately, it seems that over this time they have become less and less about what fans want and more about the dollar. This would be fine if their over all direction was where the majority of the base wanted it to go. Now I love 8th edition, I think it is the best Warhammer ever, I was skeptical of some of the rules at first (and some I am still less happy with) and I may have even said once or twice that "W4rH4mm3r was Ru1n3d!!!1!!!!111!!!", but other than the price point of entry and expansion and silly FAQ rulings I am happy with where things are. Anyway... I was going somewhere with this.... Oh yes... over the years GW has removed any sort of community input method disallowing direct access to the designers. You always hear "Vote with your Dollars" but apparently less sales is leading to worrying rumors about round bases... So, what I was wondering, in this digital age, would it not be possible to create a petition of sorts allowing Warhammer players to band together and voice their opinions to Games Workshop? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'd sign it. Hell what ever happens I would just be ok with them coming out and either squashing the rumors as untrue (if they are) or explaining it themselves as to why they are heading this direction and give at least a small apology like response for the hard core long term players. (I am not even including myself in that group becuase some of you guys have been playing since I was 20. Honestly that was a really long time ago. ) They deserve it after all these years of support. Business is business as they say but bad PR will crush a company in the long run and they need to remember that the dollars come from humans and not an ATM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'd sign it. Hell what ever happens I would just be ok with them coming out and either squashing the rumors as untrue (if they are) or explaining it themselves as to why they are heading this direction and give at least a small apology like response for the hard core long term players. (I am not even including myself in that group becuase some of you guys have been playing since I was 20. Honestly that was a really long time ago. ) They deserve it after all these years of support. Business is business as they say but bad PR will crush a company in the long run and they need to remember that the dollars come from humans and not an ATM. Why should they apologize? What if the next edition comes out and it's better than the current edition? Are you going to start a petition to get signatures so you can give it to GW for saying sorry for freaking out about change? I said it before and I'll say it again. None of us have seen the final product, what the game will be like, and how the changes effect the game. There were round base rumors and then BAM! The stuff just shown to us was on square bases. What if there are two options in 9th edition. One to play skirmish battles and one to continue playing the game we're currently playing? In the end, I don't think they need to explain for any possible change or give any kind of apology. Let's say this is the end of Warhammer as we know it. What lasts forever? I will say they had a great run and the community has had its ups and downs throughout the years of this game. The community for Warhammer went to crap shortly after 8th and then slowly grew to the fan base it is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Petitions won't do anything. The only thing that will change GW is a stock buyout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Why should they apologize? What if the next edition comes out and it's better than the current edition? Are you going to start a petition to get signatures so you can give it to GW for saying sorry for freaking out about change? I said it before and I'll say it again. None of us have seen the final product, what the game will be like, and how the changes effect the game. There were round base rumors and then BAM! The stuff just shown to us was on square bases. What if there are two options in 9th edition. One to play skirmish battles and one to continue playing the game we're currently playing? In the end, I don't think they need to explain for any possible change or give any kind of apology. Let's say this is the end of Warhammer as we know it. What lasts forever? I will say they had a great run and the community has had its ups and downs throughout the years of this game. The community for Warhammer went to crap shortly after 8th and then slowly grew to the fan base it is now. Well I saw Privateer Press apologize to its community when it went to second edition and said it was going to offer card trade in to players that went to their LGS for Free Cards of the models they had. Wyrd apologized for the inconvenience they put their players through when they went from 1.5 to 2.0 of Malifuax and gave a long explanation to its players as to why they wanted to redo and clean up its game system. (Malifuax also had an open Beta for all its players to download so everyone could see what was most likely happen to their favorite characters. We loved that!) Spartan Games acknowledged that their 1st edition rules book for DW was written poorly with the rules all disorganized before they discussed the release of their 2nd editions. Most of those were considered good changes that the community wanted and the companies want to keep the players that felt jilted happier. For PP it worked out great and their fan base still loves them for that change over. (Even though I have some issues with that game now I still think that was the best change over Inhave ever seen.) Malifuax's change over was a little bumpier but not becuase of the over all change but the speed at which they released the rules for the models. Their PR with the community though was received well and the fan base respects the company dispite the change over. Spartan Games unfortunately was a little too late and lost its fledgling DW fans, but their acknowledgement of the situation was still nice. Companies do it all the time, this is called PR when they acknowledge the costumers' concerns and misgiven feelings. It is not unheard of and is considered good business to do so. Oh yeah, all these companies let their fan base know that the changes were coming way in advance and gave hints as to what to expect as soon as the developers had things nailed down. It's kind of common practice among most gaming companies that I have seen. GW is the only real tight lipped company that I know of outside of Apple. Hang on. Apple actually informs its costumers about the products before its release at their "hey look at what we got" presentations. They just keep it tight lip up till then to keep their competitors guessing. GW really doesn't need to do that at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexicanNinja Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 All of those above examples didn't do a thing for my decision not to use their products....just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 All of those above examples didn't do a thing for my decision not to use their products....just saying.Those are not your games, fair enough. But when I was playing them and there were rumors flying around, even about dumb stuff, someone almost always came in to clear things up. On the PP forums it often was the CEO of PP. He really kept in touch with the fan base and you could send him a PM. I even get an answer back once when I asked a question from one of the game developers. Then I thought nothing of it becuase it seemed like common practice. And honestly it is the industry common practice, just not GW's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 All of those above examples didn't do a thing for my decision not to use their products....just saying. Yeah, I am sure those companies all missed your $12 I think ML's point is that a company's willingness to address their mistakes and/or shortcomings (or even just acknowledging that some players might be unhappy with them) can buy them a lot of forgiveness and good will from players. It isn't about not changing or making everyone happy, it is about the acknowledgement that your sh!t stinks like everyone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Those are not your games, fair enough. But when I was playing them and there were rumors flying around, even about dumb stuff, someone almost always came in to clear things up. On the PP forums it often was the CEO of PP. He really kept in touch with the fan base and you could send him a PM. I even get an answer back once when I asked a question from one of the game developers. Then I thought nothing of it becuase it seemed like common practice. And honestly it is the industry common practice, just not GW's. I have a missing card in one of my Malifaux models and got a personal reply from Nathan (lead designer/bigwig guy). He joked about how I should just memorize it all and got me a replacement sent... that's good service. (Obviously GW is way to big for that (and their replacement service is top tier), but mostly I just wanted to tell my story since ML told his... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romes Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-limited-refocus-your-business-model-on-the-sale-of-a-game-and-support-of-a-gaming-community-vice-the-pure-sale-of-collectible-miniatures This petition already exists and has 12K signatures. I signed it *shrug*. I'm guessing the number doesn't matter, at least until the company gets bought out *prays*. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 Petitions won't do anything. The only thing that will change GW is a stock buyout. Glad you know the hard facts... say, what research did you do for that Funny story, I did not see this idea as a sure fire way to get GW to change, in fact it's a snow ball and GW is hell... but the point of my post and the idea behind it is that I have never seen a real, united fan effort to breach GW's anti-fan defenses to say "We'd like you to approach things differently... pretty please". You are right that the best way to do it would be to buy millions and millions of dollars of stock... but since I don't know anyone willing to front us the cash I guess we might have to try another method... first thing to come to mind was a petition. Anyone with a better idea is free to voice it. It just seems to me that if people really care about the future of the game, then we should find a way to voice our opinions in unison to try to reach the decision makers instead of piling individual bitching across multiple private forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraf Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 I signed the petition Dkieft. I figured it couldn't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring_of_Gyges Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 I have to think the End Times won't last. It has to be replaced by a new core rulebook. Think about a new player now who wants to know the rules. Not even buy any models, just get the rules of the game. My understanding is that they are spread over the core book ($74), Nagash ($74), Gllotkin ($58), Khaine ($58), & Thanquol ($74), and the armybook of your choice ($49). The rules will cost you $387. The rules alone. That's madness. That's blasphemy. That's GW. If they insist the the End Times are the official rules of the game now and the rules are spread over $400 worth of books, I don't see who they think is going to start playing the game. I'm allready invested in fantasy and I'm not willing to pay for $250 worth of new rules. They have to consolidate the rules into one or two books. A big new book full of new and revised rules is 9th edition, I don't see how they can avoid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 Honestly to play all you need is the mini rulebook that you can get for about $25 off ebay, your army book and then the download of the Erratas. Of course you have to know this first to begin with. Otherwise most of the ET stuff is scenario based and the rules for the models shouldn't be something new players should worry about. Heck, 40k is three times as bloated with rules than Fantasy and GW wants to make Fantasy more like 40K with more released supplement books and what-nots along with limited release models to get players to wait on their computers to order them as soon as their are up for sale. So right now we are in the golden days of Fantasy with most of the Army Books updated and a lot of great models out there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNathanson Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 The only exception to what ML said that I know of is the Khaine magic rules, which they CLAIM are not "consensus required" but as they don't control any game format rules at all, I think we've all agreed: eff that. Other than that though AFAIK he's right: it's just more units with more special rules which (as a new player with just the rulebook, your army book, and erratas/FAQs) your opponent should provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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