Best Imperial Flyer or Anti-Flyer Unit

[deadwing34]

I play Dark Angels and I have the Nephilim Jetfigher...and its ok. But since I play an Imperial army it is very easy to ally in other Imperal Armies. The problem with using a flyer is that they can get stuck in reserves forever if you get a bunch of crappy rolls. If you take a unit with Skyfire and your opponent does not bring any flyers, that unit can only hit non flying units on 6's. I do know that Tau have units that can either Skyfire or not. I would like to have a more versatile unit that will work well if you end up playing against a flyer or not, or a flyer that can come in on Turn 1. Does anyone know of an Imperial Unit like that? It might also be that I am overthinking this and no one uses flyers anymore.

[pretre]

Stormwolf.

[pretre]

Both SW and BA have formations that can get flyers in on turn 1, btw.

[Guest]

I play Dark Angels and I have the Nephilim Jetfigher...and its ok. But since I play an Imperial army it is very easy to ally in other Imperal Armies. The problem with using a flyer is that they can get stuck in reserves forever if you get a bunch of crappy rolls. If you take a unit with Skyfire and your opponent does not bring any flyers, that unit can only hit non flying units on 6's. I do know that Tau have units that can either Skyfire or not. I would like to have a more versatile unit that will work well if you end up playing against a flyer or not, or a flyer that can come in on Turn 1. Does anyone know of an Imperial Unit like that? It might also be that I am overthinking this and no one uses flyers anymore.

As a DA player, are you playing in a setting that allows Forge World? The Mortis Dreadnought is one of the best SM AA units available, and is very fluffy to add to DA (used to be 0-1 for armies other than DA).

 

On a side note, the Mortis Dread model is just a Dreadnought with two ranged weapons of the same type on either side. The Lascannon version can be easily made with the lascannons in the firestorm redoubt set. The autocannon versioin can be made via the autocannons in the aegis line. It is an extremely easy model to acquire without doing a FW order.

 

The DA codex without FW has a notable lack of AA units. As mentioned in a prior thread, those RW black knights actually do a pretty good job in the AA role.

 

I haven't really read the new SW book, but I am a huge fan of the SR in terms of imperial flyers. I enjoy the versitility of the vehicle, as it functions as a transport for multiple units (dread, 2 combat squads, and two ICs) and has the ability to target two units per turn with viable weapon options.

 

You could look into a thunderhawk gunship. That's probably the most impressive imperial flyer allowed in normal play. Far too expensive, but that would be on the top of my list for non-FW rules imperial flyers.

[deadwing34]

To be clear the only way to get the Stormwolf on turn 1 is with a formation? But you are saying it is the best Imperial Flyer?

 

Not really wanting to go the Forgeworld route.

 

I can see how the DA Black Knights would make an ok anti-flyer unit with their twin linked plasma talons. Plus still usable on the ground.

 

What about standard marines with Flak Missles. I was thinking a devastator squad with multiple missile launchers?

[AbusePuppy]

The Stormwolf (and to a lesser degree the Stormfang) are both quite good and can carry a unit to disembark and charge/claim an objective. They have strong anti-air and anti-ground firepower and do a great job of messing up enemy Knights and other vehicles.

 

Stormravens and Stormtalons are both pretty decent-to-good units with very acceptable firepower for their cost. MM+Las on the 'Raven and Skyhammer on the 'Talon are the accepted loadouts. Also remember there is a formation of 1 'Raven + 2 Talons available if you don't want to invest in any other units.

 

The Vendetta is still one of the better AA platforms around and can carry a small unit of dudes to boot. It's cheaper than most other flyers in its weight class and performs with a reasonable degree of effectiveness even when Jinking.

 

For ground-based anti-air solutions, the Hydra and Stalkers are okay, Imperial Fist Devastators with Flakk Missiles are surprisingly useable, and that's basically it.

 

Branching out into Forge World, however, gives you a lot more options. Sabre Defense Platforms are excellent AA available in the IG troops slot; the Hyperios Platform is similar, but for Marines and in the FA slot. Mortis and Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts can also be quite scary to airplanes, depending on your price point, and one of the Legacies of Glory can give Interceptor/Skyfire for a turn (as can one of the FW Chapter Tactics.) As for airplanes, the Vulture is an absolute monster against ground targets and can serve reasonably well against airplanes with AV10/11 in the rear; the Fire Raptor and Avengers, while not built for AA, both serve the role with more than passing competence.

[Guest]

To be clear the only way to get the Stormwolf on turn 1 is with a formation? But you are saying it is the best Imperial Flyer?

 

Not really wanting to go the Forgeworld route.

 

I can see how the DA Black Knights would make an ok anti-flyer unit with their twin linked plasma talons. Plus still usable on the ground.

 

What about standard marines with Flak Missles. I was thinking a devastator squad with multiple missile launchers?

Flak missiles just aren't worth the cost. 25pts per launcher really drives up the cost. Though if pressed, get a DA libby to get them re-rolling hits via divination. There are other useful divination powers there. I think if you go the flakk devastator route, the nephlim jetfighter will start looking viable...

 

If you take allies, the Imperial Fists have devastators with flakk missiles which also have tank hunters. If combined with a Divination DA libby, you should really have some solid AA. That said, if taking SM allies, they have better AA units.

 

At one point I was testing a DA devastator unit with 3 heavy bolters and a flakk missile launcher. I dropped it too soon for an adequate test, but it made for a much cheaper AA option (I wanted the points and heavy slot for other things). Logic is that most flyers are AV10-11, so heavy bolter should be able to volume fire them to death. Missile was there for the bigger flyers, with the signum always used on that missile. Dev squad was pretty versatile with that build, as they'd be able to damage light vehicles, flyers, and infantry without much alteration.

 

Are you allowing fortifications? I highly recomment the Quad Icarus Lascannons on a Vengeance Weapon Battery. 75pts for AV14 with skyfire and interceptor.

[pretre]

To be clear the only way to get the Stormwolf on turn 1 is with a formation? But you are saying it is the best Imperial Flyer?

 

 

If I remember correctly, yes. And yes.

[WestRider]

As for airplanes, the Vulture is an absolute monster against ground targets and can serve reasonably well against airplanes with AV10/11 in the rear; the Fire Raptor and Avengers, while not built for AA, both serve the role with more than passing competence.

Just as a note, while I was looking through the FW FAQs trying to find if I could add a Mortis Dread to my SW, I noticed that Imperial Fire Raptors can upgrade the ball turrets to TL Autocannon now. Not as good as the dual Reapers that Chaos gets, but way better than the Quad Heavy Bolters.

[Prophecy]

Ah AP you just reminded me I wanted 3 Hyperios Platforms.

[Threejacks]

Flak missiles just aren't worth the cost. 25pts per launcher really drives up the cost. Though if pressed, get a DA libby to get them re-rolling hits via divination. There are other useful divination powers there. I think if you go the flakk devastator route, the nephlim jetfighter will start looking viable...

 

If you take allies, the Imperial Fists have devastators with flakk missiles which also have tank hunters. If combined with a Divination DA libby, you should really have some solid AA. That said, if taking SM allies, they have better AA units.

 

At one point I was testing a DA devastator unit with 3 heavy bolters and a flakk missile launcher. I dropped it too soon for an adequate test, but it made for a much cheaper AA option (I wanted the points and heavy slot for other things). Logic is that most flyers are AV10-11, so heavy bolter should be able to volume fire them to death. Missile was there for the bigger flyers, with the signum always used on that missile. Dev squad was pretty versatile with that build, as they'd be able to damage light vehicles, flyers, and infantry without much alteration.

 

Are you allowing fortifications? I highly recomment the Quad Icarus Lascannons on a Vengeance Weapon Battery. 75pts for AV14 with skyfire and interceptor.

 

Regarding the flak missiles...25 points gives you a launcher that can also fire at ground targets with either the small blast or the Krak at harder targets,those being at the units normal BS,for most marines being 4.Still they are a bit weak but taken in 2`s or even 3 they can be a threat for what amounts to an additional 20-30 points on the list.True that they are a bit more usefull for AM squads in a gunline but could be helpful in a small marine squad that's camping an objective.

[WestRider]

The thing is, even the basic Missile Launcher is a bit overpriced at 15 Points each, and then when you add on the also overpriced Flakk upgrade, and multiply that by enough Models to make a difference (It takes 6 BS4 Flakk Missiles on average to strip a single HP from a Jinking Night Scythe), it gets really expensive.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah. If Missile Launchers came with Flakk base? Sure, that'd be another story. But the lower Strength and lack of bonus on the damage table make the Missile Launcher a poor choice compared to the Lascannon these days. A squad of just five regular Devastators with Flakk Missiles is 170pts- for the same price, you could get two Stalkers and then some, which would have eight twin-linked S7 shots instead of four non-TLed ones. The Missile Launcher's multiple fire modes just aren't worth the price tag these days, especially with various 2+ armor threats (Riptides, Broadsides, Overlords, Chapter Masters/Wolf Lords) running around these days.

 

As I said, with Imperial Fists the lower Str makes less of a difference, since you're getting the reroll to push HP damage through, but for base Marines Flakk serves no real purpose.

[Guest]

Regarding the flak missiles...25 points gives you a launcher that can also fire at ground targets with either the small blast or the Krak at harder targets,those being at the units normal BS,for most marines being 4.Still they are a bit weak but taken in 2`s or even 3 they can be a threat for what amounts to an additional 20-30 points on the list.True that they are a bit more usefull for AM squads in a gunline but could be helpful in a small marine squad that's camping an objective.

Devastators are not objective secured, so unlikely they are camping an objective very seriously. Frag small blasts are lacking against almost every opponent. Krak are subpar to lascannons, which are cheaper missile launchers with flakk missiles. The flakk missiles are single shot autocannons. They don't deny flying MC armor, and the devastator unit lacks the mobility to get rear shots on enemy flyers. Krak missiles only being able to glance AV14 can be a huge issue, in some games.

 

I have had decent results with scout flakk missiles, purely for the psychological impact they have on opponents with flyers. I infiltrate them to a position where they will be able to fire at the rear of enemy flyers when they arrive on turn 2. Opponents will spend an inordinate amount of effort to remove the scouts, rather than attacking elements of my army that are likely to do any actual damage. This remains effective if opponent has vehicles with weak side armor, like chimeras, often resulting in a dramatic change in their formations (AM tanks often move in formations). Scout sergeants with plasma pistols or combi-meltas can also yield similar results. It isn't about what they do, it's about what they *could* do.

[Guest]

Yeah. If Missile Launchers came with Flakk base? Sure, that'd be another story. But the lower Strength and lack of bonus on the damage table make the Missile Launcher a poor choice compared to the Lascannon these days. A squad of just five regular Devastators with Flakk Missiles is 170pts- for the same price, you could get two Stalkers and then some, which would have eight twin-linked S7 shots instead of four non-TLed ones. The Missile Launcher's multiple fire modes just aren't worth the price tag these days, especially with various 2+ armor threats (Riptides, Broadsides, Overlords, Chapter Masters/Wolf Lords) running around these days.

Flakk missiles need AP3. It isn't enough to be able to hit flying MCs if you cannot deny their armor with a 25pt weapon.

[AbusePuppy]

That would definitely have helped them, yeah. 25pts (or, if you're Eldar, 30+pts) is way, way too much to ask for a S7 AP4 weapon under ANY circumstances. Flakk tries to make it a generalist weapon, but unlike in 5E where the Missile Launcher really did do basically everything, these days it just doesn't cut the mustard at ANY role. It's a generalist weapon that isn't even a good generalist.

[Guest]

That would definitely have helped them, yeah. 25pts (or, if you're Eldar, 30+pts) is way, way too much to ask for a S7 AP4 weapon under ANY circumstances. Flakk tries to make it a generalist weapon, but unlike in 5E where the Missile Launcher really did do basically everything, these days it just doesn't cut the mustard at ANY role. It's a generalist weapon that isn't even a good generalist.

The one I really want is the flakk HK missile. Even with the normal flakk profile and no option to switch missile types, I'd pay 10pts to have a shoddy AA option on a rhino or razorback. Might not go on every vehicle, but I can see value there.

 

I'll add that it's 25pts for the weapon only, with the devastator marine being an additional cost. You even lose the bolter for the missile launcher...

 

That Deathwatch RPG had single shot missile launchers for infantry that I really wish my scout marines could take. That could be very viable. Maybe 10pts each missile, 4 per squad, and one use missile type is determined during deployment. Heavy slot scouts. They remain BS3.

 

Eldar are different. They have much different versions of devastator marines. I would consider taking flakk missiles on a Reaper exarch. He'll get 2 shots [fast shot] at BS5 and his shots deny jink [reaper rangefinder]. He's also slow and purposeful.

 

The eldar missile laucher also has a much better alternative to the frag missiles and an improved krak missile. If SM missile launchers had pinning krak and ap4 frag, they would be much more effective. Honestly, if frag was made S2 ap- and given a large blast, that would be a pretty major improvement...

[Guest]

Oh, back to the OP, you really are over-thinking it.

 

In most games, there won't be any flyers. Then you'll have games with a single flyer and a rare few games with lots of flyers.

 

Any twin-linked weapon (non-blast or template) has decent odds to hit a flyer. Don't math it, just roll some dice, as the math will give a false impression on the difficulty involved. Yes, weapons with more shots are better for this, but really, just roll some 6s and you can hit flyers.

 

Second bit, and this is really the important feature of flyers, is that if they jink, they are dramatically less effective in the shooting phase. The primary purpose of any AA weapon is to force their flyer to jink. Jinking will stop most AA weapons from destroying the flyer, but it will also nerf most flyers. Jinking means they are BS1, can't fire blasts and can't fire template weapons.

 

Skyfire+interceptor weapons are pretty amazing for their ability to force a jink on the turn that flyer arrives from reserve. Again, they don't need to destroy the flyer, just make the flyer jink and it really isn't much of a threat. For the imperials, the Vengeance Weapon battery with quad icarus is the cheapest route, being a meager 75pts for a skyfire+interceptor weapon.

 

Beyond the mentioned, it is notable that flyers MUST move a certain distance each turn and failure to do this will destroy them. Likewise, if they leave combat airspace (fly off the table) and don't return before the game ends, they are considered destroyed. There are tactics that can force either of these (by denying them places to move their model), though they are uncommon for Marines to employ, as they require lots of models.

 

Still, given the limited turning, and often hull mounted weapons, players with their army on a board edge or board corner may notice a tacitcal advantage against enemy flyers, as the player often doesn't want to lose a turn on the table by being unable to not fly off the table. If your army is fast enough, you can often advance to locations where the flyer will require multiple turns to shoot again with hull weapons.

[pretre]

My 15 ML LF are sad about the change.

 

@Pax: Except right now flying tyrants are a big thing and something that needs to be dealt with.

[deadwing34]

I do really like the changes to the Jink rules, you have to decide before any shots are fired and deal with the consequences of BS1 even if no shots end up hitting.

 

Side note when you are firing a twin-linked weapon with Prescience cast on it do you get a total of 4 rolls? I have always played that way. But I was re-reading the core rule book last night and it said you can only ever get one re-roll of a dice.

[pretre]

You can never reroll a reroll, so no.

[fluger]

*I* can!

[deadwing34]

But how am I supposed to snap fire flyers to death with only 2 rolls and not 4?

[Mr.MoreTanks]

Roll 6's.

[Guest]

@Pax: Except right now flying tyrants are a big thing and something that needs to be dealt with.

Best solution to flyrants is melee units in land raiders/buildings. Flyrants really can't scratch AV14 without landing and can no longer charge the turn the land, so wait for them to land and butcher them in assault. As for winning in assault, you want storm shields, thunderhammers(or those smite mode power mauls), and maybe FNP.

 

On a side note, if you do go the black knight route, those rad grenade launchers will allow you to instant death tyranid MCs that land. You'd still need S10, but it can be done and tyranids lack invulnerable saves for the most part.

 

But how am I supposed to snap fire flyers to death with only 2 rolls and not 4?

Again, they don't need to die, just get them to jink. Nerf their shooting and force them to land if they want to get anything done.

 

In the case of flying MCs, you're trying to ground them. Grounding them will cause a S9 hit with no armor or cover and futher allow them to be charged. This will likely cause an additional wound, should they fail their grounding test (1/3 tests fail). Grounding tests happen once per phase, so the more phases you can hit a flying MC in, the better. Interceptor weapons hit in their movement phase, some psychic powers can hit in the psychic phase and most AA weapons hit in the shooting phase.