Threejacks Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 http://www.communitycomp.org/ Its written for the Aussie tournament circuit I think,the main article on it is over at Bols http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/40k-down-under-how-australia-tamed-the-wilds-of-7th-edition.html I found out about it over at the Ork site Da Waaagh and most of the commenters there seem to think its pretty rough and quite inaccurate.After plugging in my Dread mob list for OFCC I have a tendancy to agree as it placed me in the top 20%....yeah,no.Appearently Killa Kanz armies in Australia are rather nasty as they think they need to be heavily restricted from spam lol. Anyhow,its a nice format and perhaps has promise if it had more exposure to the community. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ugh, no thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Having to make a list just to make a list is just crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgentP Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 This is a whole new unexplored frontier of bitching for 40k players. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I'll stick with our current bitching. Also, Sylvos! I SUMMON THEE! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 My current Drop List is illegal under their options (double CAD), but if it were allowed, it would score 19/20. That might actually be reasonable. At this point, I think I have it tuned to a pretty strong list. My stupid gimmicky all Dread List, on the other hand, still scores like 16/20, which is ridiculous. I didn't look through the whole thing, but there were some things (particularly in the AM section) that really cracked me up. Bullgryns and Wyrdvane Psykers cost credits? Really? ICs in general cost credits if you have big Blobs, but Priests (one of the most efficient boosters for said Blobs) don't? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Prests actually do cost 1cr each, I believe, but that's sorta beside the point. The system is beyond absurd because it's such a hodge-podge collection of "I hate _____ so I am going to punish you for bringing it" rulings. Wyrdvane Psykers is a great example- in whose world were those ruining the tournament scene? That phat ML1 and ability to be shot off the table by any gun in the game? For some factions, there are almost no units in their entire codex that you aren't penalized for taking- Eldar stick out particularly there, but there are others as well. Still, I'm pretty sure I could build a CR5-8 list that would roll over most of the [big bad swear word]ty armies people were forced to bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ah, Priests just get nailed for that anyhow in their own entry, rather than getting an extra hit only if you've got a Blob. But yeah, a ton of things that not only have I never heard anyone complain about, but I've never even seen anyone field, in person or in a batrep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threejacks Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 The reason I bring this up is its the first ive seen of a "real" attempt at bringing a Swedish style of composition system to 40k.Of course the regional meta in Australia must be really goofy compared to what we see here but,assuming more accurate data was plugged into it,would something like this even be possible in 40k?..that is considering GW`s rapid fire release of new books and all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 If I can do math... PentaTyrant only comes in at 8 cr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 If I can do math... PentaTyrant only comes in at 8 cr.There's an increasing thing that happens. Not sure if you took that into accountZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PumpkinHead Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I see what I missed. It is still only a 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 The reason I bring this up is its the first ive seen of a "real" attempt at bringing a Swedish style of composition system to 40k.Of course the regional meta in Australia must be really goofy compared to what we see here but,assuming more accurate data was plugged into it,would something like this even be possible in 40k?..that is considering GW`s rapid fire release of new books and all. I know I've seen attempts at this before (in particular, I remember a 3++ article where AP or Kirby horribly broke two or three of them). I thought there actually was a 40K variation of the Swedish Comp floating around, but I can't find it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 20 Wounds = 3 Cumulative Cost for C1 Hive Tyrant with Wings and Guns - 1 +2 + 3 + 4 + 5 18 For just the Tyrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Let me expound on why comp and 40k have never had the same relationship that comp and fantasy have had. First, let me set my experience here, I started in 2nd edition 40k and 5th edition Fantasy respectively. I was far more active in Fantasy for about 8 years (basically exclusively Fantasy), then I went all in on 40k during it's 5th edition and the beginning of 8th ed Fantasy. Essentially, I get both game communities pretty well and I understand their history. Now, the main reason that Fantasy is so comp-conscious in a way that 40k never really has been is that Fantasy is a way more unbalanced game in a sense. Essentially, in Fantasy, there are, let's see, 5 armies that can bring a dragon IIRC? (HE, DE, WE, Chaos, VC?) I might be missing one. In Fantasy there are only a few armies that bring actual cannons (Emp, Dwar, Dogs of War, and?). Some armies fought in skirmish formation with lots of shooting (WE!) while other armies had no magic and no access to it. Basically the diversity of the game meant that if someone went extreme in some fashion then they could easily run the risk of roflstomping a bunch of armies that had no good counter. As an example, when I was playing my Empire at Fire and Sword a ton, Zach was running this extreme all Cav Khorne list (7th edition) with a dragon lord and chariots and it was just a beatstick. He regularly rolled over most gamers. Now, he never ONCE beat me with that list, and I don't say that to toot my own horn, simply that I had cannons and a helblaster and a steam tank and he didn't have a way to kill my guns before they neutered his force. Plus, I had detachments to divert and deflect and make him pay for frenzy. Basically I was the paper to his rock. Now, did the fact that I could beat him make any of those other players enjoy their games more? No. Also, conversely, my Empire army was TERRIBLE at dealing with the new Dark Elves that came about in late 7th edition. They absolutely murdered me. I think I had like a 25% win record against them. So, the wheel keeps turning, eh? The fact is, in fantasy, the ability to make extreme lists which make the game unfun has always been one of the problems with the game and why lots of people have always clamored for comp. Anyway, to 40k. In 40k, there is diversity, but not to the degree of Fantasy in this respect. Essentially every army has about the same kind of things and preparing for all of them almost always amounts to the same things: Bring enough anti-tank, bring enough anti infantry, bring something to take objectives. Sprinkle in diversion and other factors for flavor. This was true of 40k from 2nd edition all the way through 5th. Basically if anyone brought an extreme build, they didn't hold as good of a chance of beating good lists that didn't match up. For instance, if someone went heavy mech, they had to hope their opponent had insufficient anti tank to deal with them, but even a small amount of anti-armor shooting CAN do enough damage to turn the tide, so it wasn't a foregone conclusion. Almost invariably, in 40k, being beaten in the list-building phase was an artifact of creating the better Take All Comers list. Now, since 6th edition, this has changed remarkably because now we have a few units in the game that are unprecedented in power and ALSO limited to a few codexes. The big ones are Flying Monstrous Creatures which never existed before 6th and Super Heavies/Gargantuan Creatures which only existed in Apocalypse. 6th also saw a huge leap with the re-addition of allies and a new power surge for psykers. Pyskers have been somewhat toned down in 7th, but they dominate the game in a way that they hadn't in 3rd through 5th. Because only a few armies can get the units that really matter in these categories, the game has kinda been put into the same realm as fantasy in terms of army diversity. The basic idea of a Take All Comers list in 40k is REALLY difficult to manage now because so many things require specialized attacks to deal with. 40k never really had a problem with people bringing kinda crappy lists that at least had enough AT/AI and objective holders that they could at least hang with even top-flight lists if used with skill. Now? Those players will get wiped off the board the first time they run into a Ad Lance or something equivalent that is so out of the scope of their list. That's a feeling Fantasy players know all too well, I've been on both sides of that equation, either disgustedly removing models while doing nothing or else watching my opponent's soul die as I crush his army with impunity. Anyway, that is why historically 40k hasn't seen the need for comp, but why it might make sense now, but, even then, I think MOST comp is dumb, and if you want to go debate it, they regularly do in the Fantasy section. Hell, there's a comp/no comp thread on their first page now. Go over there and chime in! As for me and 40k and comp? I recognize my place in the pecking order and don't worry about the big dogs. I'll hang out with the casuals and just have fun. I no longer look at OFCC as a chance to power-down, but a chance to actually play. My priorities have shifted, which means I shouldn't really be trying to give input into big tournaments (which is what comp is all about, because, if you're having rock/paper/scissors matches with buddies, you should probably mix it up...). That whole post took really long to finish as I had to leave multiple times to help sick kids/wife and so I'm not sure if it's even coherent. Whatever *post*. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Because only a few armies can get the units that really matter in these categories, the game has kinda been put into the same realm as fantasy in terms of army diversity. The basic idea of a Take All Comers list in 40k is REALLY difficult to manage now because so many things require specialized attacks to deal with. 40k never really had a problem with people bringing kinda crappy lists that at least had enough AT/AI and objective holders that they could at least hang with even top-flight lists if used with skill. Now? Those players will get wiped off the board the first time they run into a Ad Lance or something equivalent that is so out of the scope of their list. . This. This is exactly the issue I've been running into with TACT list building. CaptainA took over the GG league and he's rather pro FW, so I'm hoping that I'll be able to find a good TACT list within the FW additional options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Try SOB. They do TAC pretty well. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapel Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 There used to be some comp systems in place at the Borderlands tournament in Salem many many years ago. The problem with any comp system, is that invariably there are broken elements that can get spammed out. All armies are not created equal, and I don't believe that there's any possible way to do so. Some armies troops are far better than other armies....just the nature of the list. However their elites or heavies may not be as powerful. There will always be a Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock element to the game and that's just the way it is. You try and bring as balanced of a list as possible, to deal with as many possible situations as you can. Furthermore, you have to be adaptable and roll with the releases. When a new book comes out there's always whining and fear of the cheese. Look at the Lictor list that won the LVO, and tell me anyone saw that coming. Bottom line is that people will always adapt and win in situations where no one expects them too. All the armies are different and will always fare better against other armies, but will struggle against some matchups. Its just how it works. I agree with the concept behind what Frontline Gaming are trying to accomplish with their polls. However, I may not agree completely with the pre-emptive attack on the Eldar, but I understand it. I know they're in a tough position trying to make the contests fun for everyone that comes, and no one wants to play a GT over two days that 4/6 matchups are super stomper Eldar armies. I'd like to see how the actual book plays out with Gargantuan Wraithkngihts, and D-weapons, and lots of jet bikes with a bazillion shots on them, and I trust that the FLG guys are playtesting the hell out of them. People will learn to counter as they always do, and the all comers list will alter slightly. Look at the invisibility and 2++ rerollable saves. Most agree those solutions work out fine, and people still take those options. Comp systems won't work....very very small tweaks will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Try SOB. They do TAC pretty well. :) They do seem to. Issue is one where I don't really want to switch armies, just figure out how to make mine work. Sisters also have no appeal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 However, I may not agree completely with the pre-emptive attack on the Eldar, but I understand it. Not to be a Frontline Apologist but this isn't an attack, they had a default BAN on ranged D. The Eldar book is chock full of ranged D on units that have been part of the game for decades. Banning wraithguard makes a whole lot sense than banning Shadowswords. This isn't an ATTACK, this is a way to fit the new codex into the paradigm of their format as it already existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Try SOB. They do TAC pretty well. :) That's actually really true. They have been a really effective army for a while now. The price point keeps them from being more popular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 That's actually really true. They have been a really effective army for a while now. The price point keeps them from being more popular. And the lack of plastics, and the limited poses, and the lack of printed codex..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 And the lack of plastics, and the limited poses, and the lack of printed codex..... I have a printed codex and tons of poses. You just need to be creative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skkipper Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Basically spamming is where stuff gets broken. If we just paid a points tax on each duplicate unit. List would become less spammy 1st unit is free 2nd is 25% tax 3rd unit is 50% tax . . . I feel a system like that doesn't prevent people from taking themed lists. It makes the game more diverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ugh, no. So my sisters of battle now cost 12.5% more just to get my basic troops? No, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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