Thoughts on the new Space Marine Codex

[fluger]

Its sad because Whirlwinds are just so underwhelming.  Even with the points drop.  :(  

[Guest]

Honestly, even with Tank Hunter, 3 AutoLas Preds only barely pull up an expected value of Wrecking an AV12 Target with 4+Cover, or killing a Fex with the same Cover. I suspect there'd be less overkill than you might imagine. 345 Points for that, which is spendy, but not ludicrous.

 

The Whirlwinds are what I'm really looking at taking as a full Squadron, tho, particularly in a Suppression Force. I just wish Dark Angels could use that Formation, since a RavenWing Speeder would be significantly more survivable as the Spotter.

I'm not suggesting sponsons, as I mentioned above. 3 preds, say 3 TL las for 300pts. I move 6" every turn, fire 3 TL lascannons, re-roll failed wounds/pens.

 

Yeah, dev centurions are probably better for the role, but if the list is mosly mech, it might be worth having an AV13 squadron in the mix. I will note that for my DA, I don't have any access to dev centurions, so the preds start looking more appealing.

[Guest]

Its sad because Whirlwinds are just so underwhelming.  Even with the points drop.  :(  

Then you aren't using them right. They can be very impressive, especially for points. They are not thunderfires or bassilisks, but they have their place.

 

I'm really not sure regarding the squadron.

 

Move and fire 6", 3 large blasts, Ignores cover, Shred (S4) and pinning. On paper, it seems viable against some opponents. 195pts.

 

DA have a formation which can add tank/monster hunters to the mix, which when combined with the ordnance rule, means you might actually damage light skimmers and transports.

[AbusePuppy]

Three hundred points for three TL Lascannons is a horrible deal. Just absolutely awful.

[Doug_L]

Maybe as a more general question but what is the best way to make an mechanized marine list "work" in 7th edition? I assume the armoured formation with it's ignore stunned/shaken is the way to go but it doesn't seem to really gel with any of the chapters. It's too bad that Iron Hands lost IWND for vehicles.

 

I used to have a really fun 4th/5th salamanders army. It had lots of predators, whirlwinds, vindicators but in hindsight... they weren't particularly effective. You can just can't rely on an Autocannon/Lascannon predator to put reliable wounds on anything. The vindicators were basicially guaranteed to miss the one shot per game they got. The winners of the army were all the marines with twin-linked flamers and melta guns hiding in the rhinos which were in turn, hiding behind the not-so-useful tanks.

 

It doesn't look like those tanks have gotten much better or cheaper but in contrast, everything they're shooting at seems to be tougher and their own list now has tougher competition like centurion devastators.

[pretre]

Razorspam would make a good mech list at this point. Use Full Company to get as many cheap razors as you can and run your opponent down. Add in a couple cheap armored vehicles to fill up your points (Whirlwind formation ,etc)

[Guest]

Three hundred points for three TL Lascannons is a horrible deal. Just absolutely awful.

 

And for the record, where are you getting 3 cheap TL lascannons in the SM codex? Razorbacks are 75pts these days (225pts for a trio).

 

As far as functionally-relentless TL lascannons, they are spendy, but they are on a nice platform. Dunno if they are worth 300pts in most games, but I don't think they are entirely overpriced.

 

Dev centurions are 210pts with the lascannons. And those almost always require an IC or transport/building to remain viable/durable enough to stay on the table.

 

Anyway, against, say, an imperial knight: 3 shots via BS4, 2 hits, 2.66 hits after the re-roll. Assuming front armor, 1.33 glance/pen, then a bit over 2 glances/pens with tank hunters, and one solid glance/pen after their force field. It's not bad for move and fire lascannons.

 

Obviously, melta is better, as would be two units of las devastators, but each of those have their own limitations.

[Burk]

 It's too bad that Iron Hands lost IWND for vehicles.

 

 

 

I thought they still had it. I thought the debate was whether non Iron hands vehicles get it.  I may need to go re-read my book though.

[pretre]

I thought they still had it. I thought the debate was whether non Iron hands vehicles get it.  I may need to go re-read my book though.

Iron Hands vehicles don't have chapter tactics.

[generalripphook]

Then you aren't using them right. They can be very impressive, especially for points. They are not thunderfires or bassilisks, but they have their place.

 

I'm really not sure regarding the squadron.

 

Move and fire 6", 3 large blasts, Ignores cover, Shred (S4) and pinning. On paper, it seems viable against some opponents. 195pts.

 

DA have a formation which can add tank/monster hunters to the mix, which when combined with the ordnance rule, means you might actually damage light skimmers and transports.

For that same thing you could have three wyverns for 12 twin linked small blasts and 12 hull points

 

Easy conversion to swap the guy on back for a marine. Use vetrens in the troop choice with carapace armor and then can be extra new scouts.

[pretre]

For that same thing you could have three wyverns for 12 twin linked small blasts and 12 hull points

Unbound though, or a bit more of a tax for an HQ and troop.

[Burk]

Iron Hands vehicles don't have chapter tactics.

 

so what vehicles get it?  are you saying the wrote a rule that specifically mentions vehicles, but nothing can use it?  I am working from memory as I dont have the book in front of me. If that is the case I think we would probably agree this is clearly an oversight from a RAW perspecitve correct?

[pretre]

so what vehicles get it?  are you saying the wrote a rule that specifically mentions vehicles, but nothing can use it?  I am working from memory as I dont have the book in front of me. If that is the case I think we would probably agree this is clearly an oversight from a RAW perspecitve correct?

Dreadnoughts.

 

I agree that it is probably an oversight, but it is, unfortunately, RAW. Previous editions even had a specific exception in the Chapter Tactic rule that gave it to non-CT vehicles.

[Burk]

Ok, no worries. I might be the only guy that plays iron hands, but it is just an army fluff reason...so you know.

[pretre]

Ok, no worries. I might be the only guy that plays iron hands, but it is just an army fluff reason...so you know.

I would have no problem allowing it for an opponent that wanted it, but I think that some would.

[AbusePuppy]

And for the record, where are you getting 3 cheap TL lascannons in the SM codex? Razorbacks are 75pts these days (225pts for a trio).

 

The only Razorbacks I take are 20pts each. I certainly wouldn't pay 225pts for them, but that's a moot point.

[Guest]

The only Razorbacks I take are 20pts each. I certainly wouldn't pay 225pts for them, but that's a moot point.

Lol, your counting the "free" transports. Yeah, when that is your comparison, yeah, those are cheap lascannons.

[Guest]

For that same thing you could have three wyverns for 12 twin linked small blasts and 12 hull points

 

Easy conversion to swap the guy on back for a marine. Use vetrens in the troop choice with carapace armor and then can be extra new scouts.

Doesn't cause pinning and requires a non-marine detachement and bunch other minor differences, but yeah, AM does mech-artillery better than SM, no real surprise there. AM's always had better mech-artillery.

[WestRider]

Pinning affects so few things that actually get fielded these days, it's not worth much. And those 12 small Blasts cover almost 50% more area than 3 large Blasts, so that's a pretty major increase in damage. Also, the Whirlwinds go down big time in effectiveness as soon as one of them gets taken out, while the Wyverns just degrade linearly as they take damage.

[Guest]

Pinning affects so few things that actually get fielded these days, it's not worth much. And those 12 small Blasts cover almost 50% more area than 3 large Blasts, so that's a pretty major increase in damage. Also, the Whirlwinds go down big time in effectiveness as soon as one of them gets taken out, while the Wyverns just degrade linearly as they take damage.

Pinning should not be overlooked, as it can have large impacts on the game. Vehicles, bikes and fearless/zealot models are immune, but that isn't "most" by a long shot.

 

I will note that the wyverns have only 6 shots if they move 6" and fire, while the whirls can move and fire unhindered. Whirls are 5pts cheaper each model, and are better equiped to damage light vehicles (like other mech artillery).

 

Agree on the the other point regarding damage to the unit. Losses will really hurt, so you'd really want LOS blocking, or something similar.

 

Anyway, if fielding AM and SM, I'd never field the whirlwind. AM are just much better at mech-artillery. I have found that every army should have a barrage weapon, as it seems to be a very essential part of a TACT list, even if it doesn't always shine against every opponent.

[fluger]

I have found that every army should have a barrage weapon, as it seems to be a very essential part of a TACT list, even if it doesn't always shine against every opponent.

 

I agree with this sentiment to a point.  I'll say every army with a viable barrage weapon (or LOS ignoring: like Tau seeker missiles) option should take one.  

[Guest]

I agree with this sentiment to a point.  I'll say every army with a viable barrage weapon (or LOS ignoring: like Tau seeker missiles) option should take one.  

The most viable barrage I've found for marines, is the two LR variants from FW with barrage (Helios and Achilles). Extremely viable barrage for SM, with machine spirit especially. The single whirlwind can also be awesome.

 

Again, still haven't tried this new whirly formation-that isn't a formation...

 

I am very tempted by that "hammer of caliban" formation, which includes 3 whirls and a LR as a single unit. They retain the 3 whirly bonus, which can either be combined with using the LR as a shield, or for using the whirls as a shield for the LR.

[AbusePuppy]

Lol, your counting the "free" transports. Yeah, when that is your comparison, yeah, those are cheap lascannons.

 

Since they're both available in the same army, I don't see any reason not to count them.

 

That aside, though, 300pts for three Lascannons is still a bad deal by almost any standards. Virtually weapon platform worth considering will be more efficient.

[WestRider]

Pinning should not be overlooked, as it can have large impacts on the game. Vehicles, bikes and fearless/zealot models are immune, but that isn't "most" by a long shot.

Not ignoring it, just saying it isn't worth much. That's not the same as saying it's worth nothing. But is it worth a 33% reduction in firepower? I mean, much of the other category (again, talking about things I actually see fielded) is stuff that's likely going to be completely annihilated by a triple Wyvern barrage anyhow. The only real exception I can think of is Necron blobs.

 

It's precisely because Pinning is potentially so dangerous that people go to some length to defend against it, whether by taking Fearless Units, Meching up, going all-Biker, or MSU.

[Guest]

Since they're both available in the same army, I don't see any reason not to count them.

 

That aside, though, 300pts for three Lascannons is still a bad deal by almost any standards. Virtually weapon platform worth considering will be more efficient.

I very much agree that GW seems to think lascannons are better than they are regarding point costs.

 

As for the formations, that tank still costs 75pts, even if you get it at a discount. It's an awesome discount, but I don't think it's a fair comparison of points.

 

 

Not ignoring it, just saying it isn't worth much. That's not the same as saying it's worth nothing. But is it worth a 33% reduction in firepower? I mean, much of the other category (again, talking about things I actually see fielded) is stuff that's likely going to be completely annihilated by a triple Wyvern barrage anyhow. The only real exception I can think of is Necron blobs.

 

It's precisely because Pinning is potentially so dangerous that people go to some length to defend against it, whether by taking Fearless Units, Meching up, going all-Biker, or MSU.

33%, how so? I mean it, how are you doing this math?